Discussion My recent phone conversation with Dignitas

[ManWithNoName]

There have been postings here of some very interesting documentaries about Dignitas which prompted me to get in contact with them. Let's face it: sometimes it's a good idea to get some info straight from the horse's mouth.

Keeping in mind that information can change over time as public opinion and laws shift, nonetheless here is what I got from them as of this week. My questions are more geared to my situation (e.g.: the involvement of the American authorities, post mortem, etc) but I think there is some kind of takeaway for many here.

Dignitas has a small staff, I have no idea how many are employed there. The woman I spoke to was very polite and kind, who spoke fluent English aside from her native Deutsch. She did not give me her name as they simply do not due to the scrutiny they come under even in Switzerland. She and I had a pleasant chat—she was very objective: she did not judge, nor make any kind of conclusion about me.

So here it is:

QUESTION: Is it the philosophy of Dignitas that the right to death is as valid as the right to life?
ANSWER: Yes

QUESTION: Is this unconditional?
ANSWER: Unfortunately no, because Dignitas still has to follow Swiss Law.


According to the representative, getting approval to carry out self deliverance due to a terminal illness is a little bit easier than getting approval due to mental health reasons, though either reason is still a long drawn out process. For mental health reasons, documentation, which involves several consultations with a psychiatrist (and most likely more than one) which she said could easily take minimum 1 year. The main reason for this is that when a Swiss doctor writes out the prescription for the medication that terminates the patent's life, that doctor has to have adequate rationale for doing so that fulfills the criteria of Swiss Law.

Essentially psychiatric evaluation is needed for all of this. This can be done in Switzerland, but incurred costs to stay in that country and consult the doctor(s) is on you, which can up the overall price (Dignitas service + cost of accommodations and doctors fees) significantly. The documentaries about Dignitas kind of gave me the impression that the consultation stage was considerably quicker, maybe due to the way the presentations I have seen were edited. One thing she mentioned is that if one sees a psychiatrist for the reason to carry out ctb, the patient is required to inform the doctor of his / her will to die. Neither Swiss law nor Dignitas require that the doctors that you consult with have to be based in Switzerland. The consultations can be done in one's home country, but as most of you already know, in most countries if you go to a doctor and inform them that you want to die, their automatic protocol is to throw you in the loony bin and pump you full of fucked up psychotropic drugs until you 'come to your senses that life is oh, so beautiful for everyone at all times!'.

Regarding their service: Is it required to have a close friend or family member attending the moment of ctb? She said it is highly recommended, but a close friend will suffice in lieu of a family member.

For U.S. Citizens, (this may also apply to other foreign nationals who go to Switzerland to seek out their services) after the service is complete, be it a properly prepared deceased body or cremation, the Swiss authorities have to inform the U.S. embassy of your passing, in which case the American authorities will track down one's next of kin to inform them of your death. The issue I take is that I want to pass on without any of my family knowing. I have not been in contact them in years, and I'm sure they will just spend their time complaining that I didn't measure up to their expectations. And I do not want them to feel any obligation to incur any expense to transport ashes of someone they do not like. Seriously. You can authorize that a copy of the death certificate be sent to anyone, but the U.S. government will eventually inform your next of kin.

In order to use the services of Dignitas, you have to join their organization, which is around USD 280 / per year. The costs of the complete service, as of today, (everything) is approximately CHF 10,500. This is not including any expense incurred for traveling, accommodation and extended stay to consult with doctors.

These costs are waay out of my league, so I highly doubt I will ever be able to afford them, but I have always been curious to get more information about this organization. They have an office in Switzeland and Germany, but they are more at liberty to talk from their Swiss office. http://www.dignitas.ch

My thought: Among the things I've come to realize that when I ctb, and if I do not want my biological family knowing, (being in American and dying in Europe) then I'll have to do so without any identification on me, and essentially 'disappear', and be declared dead in absentia. The drawback is that my good friends will not get closure.

 

[Deleted-User-0]

Very informative post I also watched their videos but as you mentioned the process could be very long as well as being very expensive.
At least Switzerland and Holland have respect for one's decision to be alive or not.
Hopefully one day when societies become more intelligent and less tax payers are needed everyone would have the right ...

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Canada has been trying to expand their MAID (Medical Assistance in Dying) legislature recently. I think the world is slowly starting to accept Euthanasia.

Nice write up and decent information on Dignitas though. I've always been curious about them myself. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Source:

Opinion: New MAID could serve mercy, murder, suicide

The story of Syd Valentine’s last day touched the hearts of many of our readers. Two years ago, Ms.

www.coastreporter.net

 

[ManWithNoName]

Very informative post I also watched their videos but as you mentioned the process could be very long as well as being very expensive.
At least Switzerland and Holland have respect for one's decision to be alive or not.
Hopefully one day when societies become more intelligent and less tax payers are needed everyone would have the right ...

It's the damned price that's high - though for those who qualify and are patient (and have the 10k to piss away) it's all good, but I realized that, after having spoken with them, I'm going to have to give more serious consideration to ctb without I.D. so my biological family never gets contacted.

Nice write up and decent information on Dignitas though. I've always been curious about them myself. Thanks for sharing your experience.

You're welcome. They seem like nice people, at least based on the representative I spoke with.

 

[xBrialesana]

Thank you so much for writing all of this up and sharing just to help others

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

Regarding their service: Is it required to have a close friend or family member attending the moment of ctb? She said it is highly recommended, but a close friend will suffice in lieu of a family member.

For U.S. Citizens, (this may also apply to other foreign nationals who go to Switzerland to seek out their services) after the service is complete, be it a properly prepared deceased body or cremation, the Swiss authorities have to inform the U.S. embassy of your passing, in which case the American authorities will track down one's next of kin to inform them of your death. The issue I take is that I want to pass on without any of my family knowing. I have not been in contact them in years, and I'm sure they will just spend their time complaining that I didn't measure up to their expectations. And I do not want them to feel any obligation to incur any expense to transport ashes of someone they do not like. Seriously. You can authorize that a copy of the death certificate be sent to anyone, but the U.S. government will eventually inform your next of kin.

I would seriously consider marrying a good friend or confidante so that they would be my next of kin.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I would seriously consider marrying a good friend or confidante so that they would be my next of kin.

That's a good idea really. I never married, my nomadic life was never condusive to settling down—not happy about that as I have a trail of numerous broken hearts, all of which these gals would have made a fine wife. As a result, I've avoided contact and stopped meeting women to avoid letting yet someone else down.

There is still the chance the government with its incompetence could end up contacting one of my siblings anyway—I have so much faith in the system, not! :)

 

[WEASEL1234]

There have been postings here of some very interesting documentaries about Dignitas which prompted me to get in contact with them. Let's face it: sometimes it's a good idea to get some info straight from the horse's mouth.

Keeping in mind that information can change over time as public opinion and laws shift, nonetheless here is what I got from them as of this week. My questions are more geared to my situation (e.g.: the involvement of the American authorities, post mortem, etc) but I think there is some kind of takeaway for many here.

Dignitas has a small staff, I have no idea how many are employed there. The woman I spoke to was very polite and kind, who spoke fluent English aside from her native Deutsch. She did not give me her name as they simply do not due to the scrutiny they come under even in Switzerland. She and I had a pleasant chat—she was very objective: she did not judge, nor make any kind of conclusion about me.

So here it is:

QUESTION: Is it the philosophy of Dignitas that the right to death is as valid as the right to life?
ANSWER: Yes

QUESTION: Is this unconditional?
ANSWER: Unfortunately no, because Dignitas still has to follow Swiss Law.


According to the representative, getting approval to carry out self deliverance due to a terminal illness is a little bit easier than getting approval due to mental health reasons, though either reason is still a long drawn out process. For mental health reasons, documentation, which involves several consultations with a psychiatrist (and most likely more than one) which she said could easily take minimum 1 year. The main reason for this is that when a Swiss doctor writes out the prescription for the medication that terminates the patent's life, that doctor has to have adequate rationale for doing so that fulfills the criteria of Swiss Law.

Essentially psychiatric evaluation is needed for all of this. This can be done in Switzerland, but incurred costs to stay in that country and consult the doctor(s) is on you, which can up the overall price (Dignitas service + cost of accommodations and doctors fees) significantly. The documentaries about Dignitas kind of gave me the impression that the consultation stage was considerably quicker, maybe due to the way the presentations I have seen were edited. One thing she mentioned is that if one sees a psychiatrist for the reason to carry out ctb, the patient is required to inform the doctor of his / her will to die. Neither Swiss law nor Dignitas require that the doctors that you consult with have to be based in Switzerland. The consultations can be done in one's home country, but as most of you already know, in most countries if you go to a doctor and inform them that you want to die, their automatic protocol is to throw you in the loony bin and pump you full of fucked up psychotropic drugs until you 'come to your senses that life is oh, so beautiful for everyone at all times!'.

Regarding their service: Is it required to have a close friend or family member attending the moment of ctb? She said it is highly recommended, but a close friend will suffice in lieu of a family member.

For U.S. Citizens, (this may also apply to other foreign nationals who go to Switzerland to seek out their services) after the service is complete, be it a properly prepared deceased body or cremation, the Swiss authorities have to inform the U.S. embassy of your passing, in which case the American authorities will track down one's next of kin to inform them of your death. The issue I take is that I want to pass on without any of my family knowing. I have not been in contact them in years, and I'm sure they will just spend their time complaining that I didn't measure up to their expectations. And I do not want them to feel any obligation to incur any expense to transport ashes of someone they do not like. Seriously. You can authorize that a copy of the death certificate be sent to anyone, but the U.S. government will eventually inform your next of kin.

In order to use the services of Dignitas, you have to join their organization, which is around USD 280 / per year. The costs of the complete service, as of today, (everything) is approximately CHF 10,500. This is not including any expense incurred for traveling, accommodation and extended stay to consult with doctors.

These costs are waay out of my league, so I highly doubt I will ever be able to afford them, but I have always been curious to get more information about this organization. They have an office in Switzeland and Germany, but they are more at liberty to talk from their Swiss office. http://www.dignitas.ch

My thought: Among the things I've come to realize that when I ctb, and if I do not want my biological family knowing, (being in American and dying in Europe) then I'll have to do so without any identification on me, and essentially 'disappear', and be declared dead in absentia. The drawback is that my good friends will not get closure.

A well thought out and eloquent body of information... Thankyou.

 

[HelensNepenthe]

Have you spoken or looked at Pegasos to see if your options are any different? Pegasos also appears to be more lax than other assisted death facilities.

 

[Green Destiny]

Good information. Thank you for taking the time to look into Dignitas.

 

[fightingsioux]

The U.S. embassy is NOT informed! Never, ever. The U.S government does NOT notify your next of kin. Never, ever.

Not only that, but the Swiss death certificate does not state how you died. No one can find out, which can be important regarding certain insurance clauses. If one wishes, and only if they wish it, this certificate can be sent to a friend or relative.

Swiss law, not Dignitas or Pegasos, requires a witness. It can be a family member, a friend, or someone you just met who wants a free trip to Switzerland. No one cares or checks.

Pegasos is easier to deal with than Dignitas, with different acceptance criteria, but just as costly.

See my extensive post on the subject, or feel free to PM me with any questions.

 

[Halo13]

Thanks very much for posting your experience. Way out of my price range, also but still interesting as I've thought of contacting them before.

 

[TAW122]

Thanks for sharing your recent findings with Dignitas. While they are a helpful organization in regards to the right to die, it does seem impractical for many people (including myself) due to the lengthy process, strict criteria, and of course, cost. I suppose for people who may be terminally ill or chronically physically ill, they would have an easier time to get approval.

 

[ManWithNoName]

The U.S. embassy is NOT informed! Never, ever. The U.S government does NOT notify your next of kin. Never, ever.

The representative at Dignitas did indeed say that they have to inform the U.S. Embassy if the patient is an American. This is not their policy, the the policy of international law with regards to a foreign national who dies in Switzerland whether it be by accident or suicide.
Please visit https://ch.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/death-of-a-u-s-citizen/

From the embassy website:
"Even if no assistance is needed in making funeral arrangements, the death of a U.S. citizen, whether resident or tourist in Switzerland and Liechtenstein, must be reported to the Embassy so that a Report of Death of a U.S.citizen Abroad (CRDA) can be issued. This document is necessary to settle legal and estate matters in the United States."

Even if there is no estate matter of the deceased to settle in America, the above process is the same.

She also did say that the cause of death is never disclosed on the certificate.

Have you spoken or looked at Pegasos to see if your options are any different? Pegasos also appears to be more lax than other assisted death facilities.

I have not, but that would be a good idea. Keep in mind that Pegasos policies are mandated as well by Swiss Law, so there will most likely be the same as Dignitas.

 

[Deleted-User-0]

But if

It's the damned price that's high - though for those who qualify and are patient (and have the 10k to piss away) it's all good, but I realized that, after having spoken with them, I'm going to have to give more serious consideration to ctb without I.D. so my biological family never gets contacted.

You're welcome. They seem like nice people, at least based on the representative I spoke with.

I understand it might be a personal matter but people normally need ending no matter what it is if your family never gets contacted they end up having no ending but at the end of the day who cares once we are gone we don't care what happens here on earth

 

[ManWithNoName]

But if I Iderstand it might be a personal matter but people normally need ending no matter what it is if your family never gets contacted they end up having no ending but at the end of the day who cares once we are gone we don't care what happens here on earth

True...in the bigger picture of things it does not matter. I simply would prefer not to have them contacted. I have nothing against my family, just do not to have anything to do with them, and there is always a risk that some institution or government agency will want to seek monetary compensation for processing / handling / whatever for post mortem services.

 

[Deleted-User-0]

True...in the bigger picture of things it does not matter. I simply would prefer not to have them contacted. I have nothing against my family, just do not to have anything to do with them, and there is always a risk that some institution or government agency will want to seek monetary compensation for processing / handling / whatever for post mortem services.

I agree ...you perfectly summed it up "in the bigger picture of things it does not matter".
My family will be contacted but since they live in a different country I make sure the only friend they know and contact will tell them that I had a diving accident to cause less guilt for them.
Also if you don't mind could you please have a look at my question on this thread and give me some advice. Much appreciated

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/shall-i-resign-from-my-job-before-my-ctb.31854/

 

[fightingsioux]

The representative at Dignitas did indeed say that they have to inform the U.S. Embassy if the patient is an American. This is not their policy, the the policy of international law with regards to a foreign national who dies in Switzerland whether it be by accident or suicide.
Please visit https://ch.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/death-of-a-u-s-citizen/

From the embassy website:
"Even if no assistance is needed in making funeral arrangements, the death of a U.S. citizen, whether resident or tourist in Switzerland and Liechtenstein, must be reported to the Embassy so that a Report of Death of a U.S.citizen Abroad (CRDA) can be issued. This document is necessary to settle legal and estate matters in the United States."

Even if there is no estate matter of the deceased to settle in America, the above process is the same.

She also did say that the cause of death is never disclosed on the certificate.

I have not, but that would be a good idea. Keep in mind that Pegasos policies are mandated as well by Swiss Law, so there will most likely be the same as Dignitas.

I am going to Pegasos. I know their policies well. I maintain an active communication with them. I exchanged emails with their director last night.

Pegasos does not notify the U.S. embassy, nor is the U.S. government involved at any time. (This was sent to me with an exclamation point.) The Swiss authorities give Pegasos the standard international document in 4 languages that would be received if someone died in an accident. According to the written instructions of the deceased, the witness can receive this or it can be sent to someone else. This form gives no indication of suicide.

By the way, aren't you the same person who posted in my original thread on Pegasos that you would be worried about going because they might perform secret and vile experiments on your dead body? Yes, I believe you are.

Feel free to keep Googling and posting, that's the nature of the internet. I'm done on this subject, best of luck to you.

 

[ManWithNoName]

By the way, aren't you the same person who posted in my original thread on Pegasos that you would be worried about going because they might perform secret and vile experiments on your dead body? Yes, I believe you are.

Yup. This is of course only an outside possibility that something like this would happen, nonetheless I advocate for a family member or close friend attend the ctb.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Feel free to keep Googling and posting, that's the nature of the internet.

Quick Update: I too contacted Pegasos and indeed they did say that they do not inform the U.S. embassy, and according to them, the Swiss government is not obligated to contact the U.S. Embassy.

Dignitas says otherwise due to an official process that has to transpire of when a foreign national dies in Switzerland. Yes it is true that the cause of death is not put on the death certificate, but the American authorities do somehow get notified—it's supposedly the law.

...and therein lies a conflict of information.

I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right, but the issue of whether or not any client of Dignitas or Pegasos has the right to say "don't notify anyone in America" still needs to be answered, preferably by another reputable third party search.

 

[fightingsioux]

Quick Update: I too contacted Pegasos and indeed they did say that they do not inform the U.S. embassy, and according to them, the Swiss government is not obligated to contact the U.S. Embassy.

Dignitas says otherwise due to an official process that has to transpire of when a foreign national dies in Switzerland. Yes it is true that the cause of death is not put on the death certificate, but the American authorities do somehow get notified—it's supposedly the law.

...and therein lies a conflict of information.

I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right, but the issue of whether or not any client of Dignitas or Pegasos has the right to say "don't notify anyone in America" still needs to be answered, preferably by another reputable third party search.

I am going to Pegasos.

Pegasos absolutely does not contact the U.S. government or one's relatives in the U.S.

No, nothing else needs to be answered about that. Over & out with this subject with you. Best of luck.

 

[ManWithNoName]

No, nothing else needs to be answered about that. Over & out with this subject with you. Best of luck.

...and yet you keep coming back to this issue on this thread.

I'm not trying to put you on the defensive, because I would absolutely want it to be the case where I can just carry out ctb without anyone Stateside being notified.

But with these two organizations giving two different answers on this question, the fact is the jury is still out on this issue, regardless of your assertions.

 

[arelia]

[...]
For U.S. Citizens, (this may also apply to other foreign nationals who go to Switzerland to seek out their services) after the service is complete, be it a properly prepared deceased body or cremation, the Swiss authorities have to inform the U.S. embassy of your passing, in which case the American authorities will track down one's next of kin to inform them of your death. The issue I take is that I want to pass on without any of my family knowing. I have not been in contact them in years, and I'm sure they will just spend their time complaining that I didn't measure up to their expectations. And I do not want them to feel any obligation to incur any expense to transport ashes of someone they do not like. Seriously. You can authorize that a copy of the death certificate be sent to anyone, but the U.S. government will eventually inform your next of kin.
[...]
My thought: Among the things I've come to realize that when I ctb, and if I do not want my biological family knowing, (being in American and dying in Europe) then I'll have to do so without any identification on me, and essentially 'disappear', and be declared dead in absentia. The drawback is that my good friends will not get closure.

I don't know about in the US but in the UK the next of kin doesn't have to be family. If you have a close friend who you'd like notified that's fine, just put their details in the back of your passport and make sure you've arranged and paid for everything including interment.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I don't know about in the US but in the UK the next of kin doesn't have to be family. If you have a close friend who you'd like notified that's fine, just put their details in the back of your passport and make sure you've arranged and paid for everything including interment.

I hold a U.S. passport unfortunately.

 

[arelia]

I hold a U.S. passport unfortunately.

So, do the laws there explicity state that next of kin must actually be relatives? If not, you're can nominate whoever you like to be your NoK.

 

[ManWithNoName]

So, do the laws there explicity state that next of kin must actually be relatives? If not, you're can nominate whoever you like to be your NoK.

The embassy website writes that they will track down the next of kin, but also hinted that typically they usually need help.

Someone suggested that I marry someone beforehand which is probably an option, assuming the day ever comes that I can afford their services.

 

[arelia]

The embassy website writes that they will track down the next of kin, but also hinted that typically they usually need help.

Someone suggested that I marry someone beforehand which is probably an option, assuming the day ever comes that I can afford their services.

I did the looking for you. this is pretty clear on the way the US approaches it and tells you what you need to do for the state you live in.
https://www.wikihow.com/Determine-Next-of-Kin
As for the embassy needing help.. that's why the last page of your passport has space on the last page for you to write in the contact details of your NoK.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I did the looking for you. this is pretty clear on the way the US approaches it and tells you what you need to do for the state you live in.
https://www.wikihow.com/Determine-Next-of-Kin
As for the embassy needing help.. that's why the last page of your passport has space on the last page for you to write in the contact details of your NoK.

Thank you - this is the kind of data I'm looking for!

 

[Buffy5120]

It's the damned price that's high - though for those who qualify and are patient (and have the 10k to piss away) it's all good, but I realized that, after having spoken with them, I'm going to have to give more serious consideration to ctb without I.D. so my biological family never gets contacted.

You're welcome. They seem like nice people, at least based on the representative I spoke with.

Wait so your saying you can show up to Dignitas without i.d. Like they wont check your passport or i.d.?? Because if they dont you can basicallly apply as a fake person if your from a different country like America right?

 

[ManWithNoName]

Wait so your saying you can show up to Dignitas without i.d. Like they wont check your passport or i.d.?? Because if they dont you can basicallly apply as a fake person if your from a different country like America right?

No, I meant to say that, if I want to leave this life without my biological family finding out, I would have to find an alternative method to ctb, (hanging in the woods without id, or jumping without I'd) and do so without any identification documents. According to Dignitas, that whenever a foreigner in Switzerland passes away, the record of death is passed on to the embassy of the deceased nation of domicile (i.e. passport). This information is required by Swiss law to be processed. I'm on a U.S. passport, so the U.S. authorities will track down the deceased next of kin, which is what I do not want.