Discussion Why do people (especially the more authoritarian leftist, i'm a social democrat myself) hate Israel's existence as a whole so much?

[ren1bas]

I do not think that whatever is going on in Gaza is an excuse to abolish the State of Israel. Abolishing Israel would result in IMMENSE human suffering.

 

[Dejected 55]

Since you asked... let's just boil this down a bit...

The only reason Israel exists as a state is because post-WWII nobody wanted a mass influx of Jewish refugees in their country. Full stop. The US, for instance, famously rejected Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis, a lot of whom had to return to Nazi Germany and die in the Holocaust.

After the war, a lot of Jewish people had no place to go... and countries like the US and Britain didn't want them all living there. We can be as pro-Israel as you want, but the honest truth is at least the people in power in those countries that are pro-Israel do NOT want them all coming to their countries to settle in. Make of that what you will.

So... the US and Britain primarily... decided to make a Jewish state in the middle east. You know their "promised land" or whatever. Jewish people who hadn't been back there for generations, whether they originally left willingly or not, were encouraged to move back. But the problem was... lots of Arabic people, many muslim, were living there and had been for quite a while. Land was taken away, sometimes quite arbitrarily, to make room for the influx of Jewish people. Even land that was bought, it was kind of like imminent domain where the government comes and forces you to sell some or all of your land and they name the price and you pretty much have to accept "or else."

There was never really a chance at a Palestine with this mindset. Also, each group had legitimate claims to some areas in terms of historical or religious significance to them, and neither side wanted to fully share. That said, Israel has had a lot of Palestinians living there in peace and many citizens of Israel do not at all support what their government is doing.

In the beginning, there was some expected backlash from Arabs who felt like they were being run out of their homes and land unfairly. Nobody took their side, often not even surrounding Arab nations. Israel had US and Britain backing from the beginning. And while it is true as far as I'm aware that the first violence in the form of war/attacks came from Arabs against the Jewish people... can you truly blame them?

Everyone who supports Israel goes with the "they were there first so it is their land" theory... except... nobody applies that unilaterally. How about the US... remember those "Native Americans" who had pretty much everything stolen from them? They were here first... Imagine if Russia or China loads up and comes to the US one day and says, this country really should belong to those Natives... so we're going to take most of the land and give it to them, and you other Americans need to fuck off on whatever land we deem fit for now until we decide to take that from you later too.

Can you imagine that going over well here? I can't. But it would be just as fair.

Or even just immigration... the US right now has a hard-on for wanting to expel illegal immigrants... "it's an invasion" or whatever... you know, kind of like when all those Jewish refugees from Germany who wanted a better life "invaded" the middle east... But fuck remembering history... When it happens to you, the immigrants are bad and must be repelled... when you're the one sending them somewhere else, then you want them to be welcomed.

Are there terrorists in the middle east doing horrible shit? Yep. Are many of them Arabs or Palestinians. Sure. I won't defend the horrible. But I will say... see what happens if someone comes to take your home and land away... see what you do... especially if you feel like your friends aren't helping to defend you and you're on your own... you might get proactive too. It's not great, but it's life.

There had to be a half dozen or more BETTER ways to take care of the Jewish refugees post-WWII... but the truth that I started with was, the major powers didn't want them in their country. If they did, we'd be in a different world right now. Instead, the powers that be after the war cared less about Jewish refugees and more about keeping them out of their back yards... and said "here, you guys figure it out over here."

I could go on...

 

[ren1bas]

Since you asked... let's just boil this down a bit...

The only reason Israel exists as a state is because post-WWII nobody wanted a mass influx of Jewish refugees in their country. Full stop. The US, for instance, famously rejected Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis, a lot of whom had to return to Nazi Germany and die in the Holocaust.

After the war, a lot of Jewish people had no place to go... and countries like the US and Britain didn't want them all living there. We can be as pro-Israel as you want, but the honest truth is at least the people in power in those countries that are pro-Israel do NOT want them all coming to their countries to settle in. Make of that what you will.

So... the US and Britain primarily... decided to make a Jewish state in the middle east. You know their "promised land" or whatever. Jewish people who hadn't been back there for generations, whether they originally left willingly or not, were encouraged to move back. But the problem was... lots of Arabic people, many muslim, were living there and had been for quite a while. Land was taken away, sometimes quite arbitrarily, to make room for the influx of Jewish people. Even land that was bought, it was kind of like imminent domain where the government comes and forces you to sell some or all of your land and they name the price and you pretty much have to accept "or else."

There was never really a chance at a Palestine with this mindset. Also, each group had legitimate claims to some areas in terms of historical or religious significance to them, and neither side wanted to fully share. That said, Israel has had a lot of Palestinians living there in peace and many citizens of Israel do not at all support what their government is doing.

In the beginning, there was some expected backlash from Arabs who felt like they were being run out of their homes and land unfairly. Nobody took their side, often not even surrounding Arab nations. Israel had US and Britain backing from the beginning. And while it is true as far as I'm aware that the first violence in the form of war/attacks came from Arabs against the Jewish people... can you truly blame them?

Everyone who supports Israel goes with the "they were there first so it is their land" theory... except... nobody applies that unilaterally. How about the US... remember those "Native Americans" who had pretty much everything stolen from them? They were here first... Imagine if Russia or China loads up and comes to the US one day and says, this country really should belong to those Natives... so we're going to take most of the land and give it to them, and you other Americans need to fuck off on whatever land we deem fit for now until we decide to take that from you later too.

Can you imagine that going over well here? I can't. But it would be just as fair.

Or even just immigration... the US right now has a hard-on for wanting to expel illegal immigrants... "it's an invasion" or whatever... you know, kind of like when all those Jewish refugees from Germany who wanted a better life "invaded" the middle east... But fuck remembering history... When it happens to you, the immigrants are bad and must be repelled... when you're the one sending them somewhere else, then you want them to be welcomed.

Are there terrorists in the middle east doing horrible shit? Yep. Are many of them Arabs or Palestinians. Sure. I won't defend the horrible. But I will say... see what happens if someone comes to take your home and land away... see what you do... especially if you feel like your friends aren't helping to defend you and you're on your own... you might get proactive too. It's not great, but it's life.

There had to be a half dozen or more BETTER ways to take care of the Jewish refugees post-WWII... but the truth that I started with was, the major powers didn't want them in their country. If they did, we'd be in a different world right now. Instead, the powers that be after the war cared less about Jewish refugees and more about keeping them out of their back yards... and said "here, you guys figure it out over here."

I could go on...

1. The idea of a jewish state in the modern sense was actually planned since the 1890s
2. Jews actually started moving to the british mandate before the state of israel was created and were actually a pretty significant portion of the population. There's also various jewish groups that never left Israel
3. Israel only had US and Britain backing since the Yom Kippur war, while arabs almost instantly gained soviet support. Israel was actually invaded by every single neighbor they had during the independence war. Nobody was actually kicked out of their houses since the land Israel was later created on was bought out by the Rotschilds and various other people.
4. I would definetly support the existence of a native american state had they been a single united ethnicity.

I believe that the holocaust has proven that jews cannot trust other people with their safety, as such a state was definetly required. And I believe that the land of Israel/Palestine was the best solution, since it's relatively small, is the holy land of Jews, not anybody's holy land (Al Aqsa is less holy for muslims than Israel is holy for Jews) and arabs already had 19 states most of which are WAY larger than Israel. And it's not even like Israel is on arable land. Plus Al Aqsa was located on the Palestinian side of Jerusalem, so no harm was done in my opinion. I suppose both sides are evil in the gaza conflict (one rapes innocent civilians and takes hostages and the other bombs thousands of civilians), but the boat to abolish the idea of Israel has LONG sailed. I would also say that, from a utilitarian perspective, Israel is quite valuable, since it's the only actual democracy in the middle east and is one of the most innovative states in the world.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Leftist are always on the side of the weaker party. They don´t accapt the world as it is and that in the end only the right of the stronger governs.

 

[Dejected 55]

Leftist are always on the side of the weaker party. They don´t accapt the world as it is and that in the end only the right of the stronger governs.

What does that even mean, though. Weaker people need more support than strong people in these situations. How would Israel fare if they didn't have money and weapons from the USA, for example?

It's all a huge cluster fuck in large part because outsiders (US and Britain) poked their nose into it and tried to force a solution where one was not happening naturally.

I'm not against the concept of Israel, just like I'm for Palestine. It's just that Israel was formed very ham-handedly by powers in the world that had no place doing what they did.

And at this point the world is kind of forced to make it work... but note that with increasing support by other nations in the UN for a Palestinian state, there is still resistance to that reality.

It doesn't help that there are often terrorist factions in charge of what is left of Palestine... but then... back when the US was forming, declaring their independence from Britain, and starting the revolutionary war against them... our ancestors used terrorist tactics of the day to defeat the larger enemy in Britain that we were fighting. History writes it differently mostly because we won that war... the underdogs that we were won the right to govern ourselves.

The middle east is.a cluster fuck that people living there don't even support their governments but largely can't do anything about it.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

What does that even mean, though. Weaker people need more support than strong people in these situations. How would Israel fare if they didn't have money and weapons from the USA, for example?

It's all a huge cluster fuck in large part because outsiders (US and Britain) poked their nose into it and tried to force a solution where one was not happening naturally.

I'm not against the concept of Israel, just like I'm for Palestine. It's just that Israel was formed very ham-handedly by powers in the world that had no place doing what they did.

And at this point the world is kind of forced to make it work... but note that with increasing support by other nations in the UN for a Palestinian state, there is still resistance to that reality.

It doesn't help that there are often terrorist factions in charge of what is left of Palestine... but then... back when the US was forming, declaring their independence from Britain, and starting the revolutionary war against them... our ancestors used terrorist tactics of the day to defeat the larger enemy in Britain that we were fighting. History writes it differently mostly because we won that war... the underdogs that we were won the right to govern ourselves.

The middle east is.a cluster fuck that people living there don't even support their governments but largely can't do anything about it.

The Jews are the stronger/smarter ones. They used Britain and use the USA to achieve their goals. Concerning the USA, were 50% of all Jews live, it is a win-win situation: The territory of Israel even looks like an aircraft carrier. The Arabs in Palestine were the weaker from the beginning, not able to defend their terretory. The weaker will not get more support they need to dissapear. The ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank is the long-term goal of Israel and right now they make great progress. Without being watched by the international press, it would happen much faster.

 

[Jadedmeursault9]

I think the atrocities they've committed have atleast made way for major reform. I mean, as is, the state of Israel can rot.

 

[ren1bas]

I think the atrocities they've committed have atleast made way for major reform. I mean, as is, the state of Israel can rot.

the germans, the russians, the brits, the turks, the americans, the chinese, the japanese, the belgians and many more have committed much worse atrocities on a much bigger scale yet i wouldnt say they dont deserve to exist

 

[Dejected 55]

the germans, the russians, the brits, the turks, the americans, the chinese, the japanese, the belgians and many more have committed much worse atrocities on a much bigger scale yet i wouldnt say they dont deserve to exist

For what it's worth... After WWII, Germany was essentially not allowed to exist as a unified nation for decades. It was divided in two, and occupied by the US and Soviet Union for most of that time.

I don't know if that was the right answer... just noting that is an example of not being allowed to exist for a long time.