Help Too bizarre fear to be described

[Downdraft]

Posting in recovery cuz I want to take action rather than vent. Also because it's less pessimistic of a board and will help me with more viewpoints.

It's like I developed a sense of identity to my suffering. I've been becoming increasedly concerning about trolley problems so to speak. In short, the idea that I can be in the receiving end and had to be pushed away horrifies me like nothing.

I had extremely intense anxiety to the point of fainting for a lot of years in a row. 2024 was a short break but they are back. I cannot conceive any positive experience equivalent of it, it's just too fucking dogshit. The body fighting itself, feelings of derealization, like I was pulled away from this reality. The absolute mental overwhelm and how it far surpasses any coping resources and can't focus on anything, but it's not a moment, it's most during extremely prolonged periods of time and you feel like your mind was ripped.

So, imagine my reaction at reading papers claiming that, while bad, it can just be compensated by adding more pleasure overall. Something similar argues philosopher Toby Ord (2013) and many others, that the feelings of nothing compensating this pain are "scope neglect", since it must require a finite addition of neural processes and therefore feeling it infinitely worse is a logical error, and that it can be perfectly compensated by adding also finite, but greater "units of pleasure" to others until math checks out. If not pleasure, add virtue or deontological good.

I'm not a fan of utilitarianism at all and thought this stupid idea of hedonic calculus to be as flawed as it can possibly be, but I can't really be convinced of it. All I see now is an extreme concern with the alleged finitude of my own pain, and if circumstances like keeping societies require that someone will eventually be like me, it must be worth it overall. I cannot cope with the idea of feeling like I was some kind of sacrifice or that my intense pain was justified by the greater good.

If I was well on the head I wouldn't be posting here. I'm aware this is just such a convoluted, bizarre and over-specific fear to have, but I'm clearly not ok and want to get better. Regardless of how true or false this statements are, probably the perception is making me crazy rather than actual facts. I always had anxiety for different things and when they got either proven wrong or just not a bid deal in general, my brain inmediately moved to something else to fear, endlessly. Solving this is not the end and it will likely move on again. All I know is I'm doing indoors and outdoors exercise, breathing techniques, keep myself busy, medicated... The normal stuff the therapist recommends. But it's not enough. This feels endless and hopeless and I'm seriously lacking any hope any of this improves.

TLDR: Better explained I have an obsession that my most extreme pain shouldn't be morally justifiable or even preferable, and ironically it's causing me more distress.

 

[concession]

That is a very interesting view of the situation, but maybe I do not understand it 100%.
Why do you need to feel like your pain is "justified" or "preferable" in any way? Is there someone who is forcing this worldview on you?

Think about how many papers and books were written about communism and how many people believed it and gave their lives for it even though the idea is complete dogshit in reality. Some world models are just not right, your practical experience is much valuable for your own worldview (untill your worldview makes you aggresive or dangerous to people around you in a physicall sense).
I personally think if you can peacefully coeexist with others and respect them you can see the world as you wish and there is no reason for me to prefer you being ill (even from the egotistical perspective, the more happy and productive people around me are, the more happy I am).

It is great to chalange your own worldview from time to time, but you do not have to agree with any philospher. Maybe try switching your attention to someone who does not see your pain as justified?

I do think that many people would have emptahy for you and would prefer you being healthier.

 

[Cosmophobic]

If I understand correctly your fear is that classic utilitarianism is somehow true morally and it also accurately reflects the way things function from the level of the organism to the level of society and this means your pain is justified by a greater good? A greater good that somehow exists in a real sense?

That's my best shot at understanding. Not that I don't get having very specific and bizarre fears, it's just this is a new type of existential dread to me.

I think you're right when you say "this stupid idea of hedonic calculus to be as flawed as it can possibly be". If I'm getting you right the problem is you can't convince yourself that you don't believe it because even just the possibility of it being true is so frightening to you?

 

[Downdraft]

Why do you need to feel like your pain is "justified" or "preferable" in any way? Is there someone who is forcing this worldview on you?

If I'm getting you right the problem is you can't convince yourself that you don't believe it because even just the possibility of it being true is so frightening to you?

That's... how my anxiety works. It's not rational or too grounded, but it's like a worm, who enters the mind and starts eating it, and you can't get rid of these thoughts, even if my life could go on regardless. It doesn't care. Understanding anything will not make it go away.

I know I don't need to have to be nervous by this. If it only worked like that! If I just could outwill anxiety and that somehow made it disappear!

I have chronic GAD btw. Maybe I should have mentioned.

The point of the post is, I don't know if I should tackle this by tackling anxiety as a whole, if I should work on this fear, or both things. But I think is good to post detailed info to know what's going on.

 

[Cosmophobic]

That's... how my anxiety works. It's not rational or too grounded, but it's like a worm, who enters the mind and starts eating it, and you can't get rid of these thoughts, even if my life could go on regardless. It doesn't care. Understanding anything will not make it go away.

I know I don't need to have to be nervous by this. If it only worked like that! If I just could outwill anxiety and that somehow made it disappear!

I have chronic GAD btw. Maybe I should have mentioned.

The point of the post is, I don't know if I should tackle this by tackling anxiety as a whole, if I should work on this fear, or both things. But I think is good to post detailed info to know what's going on.

I can only speak from my own experience but working on irrational fears never works. Just the opposite. Working on it means engaging with it which mean endless rumination.

Do you think it's possible you could have OCD tendencies co-morbid with GAD? Are you still engaged with mental health services?

 

[Downdraft]

I can only speak from my own experience but working on irrational fears never works. Just the opposite. Working on it means engaging with it which mean endless rumination.

Do you think it's possible you could have OCD tendencies co-morbid with GAD? Are you still engaged with mental health services?

Highly unlikely... I have regular therapy and been going for long, they would have figured out.

At the same time, I don't stop thinking the rationality of it since it seems to have great support. Anyway, rumination didn't help in the past, you are correct here, and it's unlikely it will ever do anything...

 

[Cosmophobic]

Highly unlikely... I have regular therapy and been going for long, they would have figured out.

At the same time, I don't stop thinking the rationality of it since it seems to have great support. Anyway, rumination didn't help in the past, you are correct here, and it's unlikely it will ever do anything...

They would indeed. Just checking.

Tbh I don't see the rationality of classical utilitarianism. Negative utilitarianism makes more sense.

Anyway there's no point going on about it. It's too abstract to disprove in a way that would appease the anxiety you have over the concept. The anxiety is definitely not rational.

I've had obsessions that have religion at the root but it works similarly. The endlessly repeating loop of trying to "solve" something that's not there to be solved. Unfalsifiable claims abound and it sucks when your anxiety picks up on one that's corrosive to your well-being and you find yourself forced into the impossible position of trying to falsify it.

I hope you can get past it soon.

 

[seedofnonduality21]

Unless the condition you share about is connected to some sort of traumatic event(s) in the past, especially early childhood (first 7 years when brain is predominantly absorbing everything in Theta wave perception), is it possible you have picked up any notable parasites etc from anywhere back in the past? They potentially can dramatically alter a persons thinking and emotions, nervous system habitual tendencies etc. Additionally heavy metal toxicity or plastic build up (average American is said to have enough plastic inside to make a credit card) can lead to nervous system issues. Also, parasites in our bodies often use heavy metal build up within us as a means to support and protect their existence. Zeolite (the right quality !) and humic acid are very helpful to detox heavy metals. Cilantro extract also, but it must be organic as the plant uptakes heavy metals in the soil if they are there. The same quality means it uptakes heavy metals within us and clears us out. I had a filling once in India many years ago and it turned out to be made of Cobalt metal. After some time, the metal was leaching into the body and from that I had nervous system problems, intense brain fog etc. It was only a decade later that I had some tests and cobalt was literally off the chart it was so high. Then the discovery about the filling being stupidly made of cobalt. I didn't realise before because I have had a horrific and painful illness (severe fluroquinolone induced tendonitus) for 24 years and thought the symptoms were all part of the illness.

I've found EFT Tapping to be helpful. I studied it informally following the original creators online website and eventually it led me to going through my whole life, first breaking it down into decade by decade, then year by year, then month by month as best as possible according to my memory. Looking for all possible trauma events from the most heavy to the lesser ones. And using the tapping and stripping off the layers of the trauma in a safe way, because it works like that, a gentle approach, layer by layer being neutralised and as layers are processed and released one often is surprised to remember buried aspects to specific trauma events and then these also can be processed and released. I ended up with much of a big A4 notepad full of different colouring pencil writings as I worked through all the issues and their multiple layers and the whole story of the life so far. The more I processed, the more my memory of the life became uncovered in a gently releasing way.

https://www.palaceofpossibilities.com/ That is the website for the founder of the technique.

Great your embracing breathing techniques - Nadi Shodhana (alternate nostril breathing) in particular is of course excellent for balancing the hemispheres of the brain and the solar / lunar, male female energies within the body in order to help restore a balance. I really like this guys sharing about the nadis (energy channels) -



I don't think that the philosophical approach you wrote about is good as an end goal, though it certainly has some logical relevance as part of the journey, provided it is not mis-understood. In nature anyway it happens somewhat like this. In many life enhancing traditions such as Ayurveda, Trad. Chinese Medicine etc there is always a lot of focus on balance - eat something spicy and also eat yogurt to balance the heat with coolness. Jump into a cold shower but first put a dash of cold water on your head because the internal energy will suddenly shoot up to the head as soon as the body feels the cold water. If this is not done, it can lead to excess energy in the head and potentially anger or dizziness or headache, overthinking, anxiety etc. So many examples of course and in the end it's the same with life's stress and struggles - we need to try and balance with beauty, joy, sweetness. That's instinctual, but the instinct when followed with a state of ignorance of Reality can of course often lead to addiction to pleasure to try and hide from the painful other side of things. That's of course just more imbalance in a different way and usually leads to huge catastrophes.

Therefore an honest investigation into Reality is needed. I've spent some decades studying Tibetan Buddhism, Indian Yogic Science and Shamanism. One needs to progressively understand what they are in (modern science, especially quantum science is now making it very clear that the Creation appears to be not real) and therefore by that increased clarity, the best way to operate and make choices according to the Real, not the fake human world / society. This of course encompasses what "human" body system really is beyond the physical view. Since you already embrace breathing exercises, I'm guessing you've already embarked on some level of deeper investigation.

So means that finding balance (physical, energetic, mental) is not an end goal but a supportive aspect, supportive to deeper and deeper wisdom investigation. This means that the so called negative experiences are not hidden from but transformed by the revealing that they are inherently not real, as though reflections upon a mirror. Thus later on, the horror of negative experiences is seen in a whole new light as something that led one into more and more incredible discoveries about the Reality of oneself and everything. And if it turns out that all the great spiritual Masters through history, past and present and the cutting edge of modern science are correct in this world being inherently not real, then clearly it arises out of a Transcendent Origin beyond Time and Space and that Origin is what we really truly are, right NOW (if the Origin is Transcendent to Time, therefore always it is NOW and thus we are That NOW, just temporarily asleep to our original reality). So that's waiting to be realised and that realisation can only dawn properly with wisdom and compassion in unison. One's history of past and present suffering can be utilised to develop compassion and wisdom. I would suggest especially a look into Tibetan Buddhism to go deeper into this topic. The word "Bodhicitta" is of immeasurable value here. Without knowing the pain of divine self-loss through spiritual sleep, we cannot turn things around by understanding to cultivate an "altrusitic" view of life and living. And that altruisim should unfold in a balanced way, so meditation practices help us to see into the emptiness of arising phenomena, again just as the inherent emptiness of a scene reflected upon a mirror. But we should try to look for instruction and support from an authentic teacher and in a tradition that feels genuine in terms of altruisitic motivation, because without altruistic motivation, the path is very very slow and in fact not really genuine to Reality.

If not already, suggest you study about the vagus nerve and the best techniques to reset it, in the sense that it governs sympathetic and para-sympathetic nervous system which is obviously a huge issue in your bodymind situation. I found this lady to be very helpful



and there's many more helpful youtube pages available -

etc

It's also heavily advisable to study into the chakras. As is usual, there are simple techniques to enhance and balance, leading to deeper and more complicated practices. Initially utilising the main seed syllables for the first 6 chakras (bottom to top of body). Example here -

Although I have studied for around 3 decades (with the immensely frustrating limitations of the illness I experience) and with some of the greatest Masters in the world which I have travelled to see and spend time with, it was only a year ago that I came across one of the most inspiring and powerful Avatars (a reincarnated fully Enlightened Buddha) whose teachings have been of immense clarification and support to me and I adore with all my heart. I watch the English language translations of Her teachings over and over and try to practise them as best as possible, as well as connecting with Her being (though Her physical body died already, Her being anyway is Transcendent to Time, She is indeed one with the Transcendent Origin).



There are 2 youtube channels providing some english translations for some of the videos.

So if your looking for meaning to your suffering, yes, there is meaning and it's utterly profound. So then we need clarity, otherwise it's just suffering. So we need to enhance our human technology to gain greater clarity and the motivation is the real power. From investigation we will come to understand that the real cause for everyones suffering is ultimately ignorance of Reality and the cause and effect (karma) of acting out of ignorance which further entangles us in spiritual sleep. Thus we want to leave the experience of suffering and the cyclical error of acting from ignorance, we understand all beings are also ourself (arising from the same non-dual Timeless Reality) and so we understand now to devote to the path of Awakening, so that once Awake to Reality we can help others also to understand the path and transcend from the sleep of ignorance.

BE AWARE - the solar flares now, they are electriying the Earth and beyond



....many of the great Enlightened Masters are talking about this and it is heavily affecting our nervous systems, body and mind. There is an intense evolutionary upsurge of awakening energy taking humanity by storm at this time in our human history. So now is the time to physically purify in health terms and as you already do, embracing in a balanced way, multiple breathing exercises such as nadi shodhana, box breathing, 478 breathing, kapalbhati etc, finding a good meditation teacher if possible and perhaps some techniques like physical yoga or chi guong, tai chi etc.

All Best Wishes
x

 

[sanctionedusage]

dissecting the 'why' to 'understand' is a trap rumination in gad and ocd built to fulfill its own prophecy

suffering exists because it's inherent to the design of this world, whether or not you think it was designed by (a) being(s) or by spontaneity

"why" some suffer more than others is "answered" by people's vivid imaginations and the natural human instinct to look for and consequently find patterns to form an answer or a formula. karma and penance, trauma, greatness. all theories, all made because other ruminators needed to make meaning or prediction out of something even if it came at the expense of their own innocence, energy, and honestly, logic