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Alexei_Kirillov

Alexei_Kirillov

i must rest here a moment
Mar 9, 2024
1,311
Depression technically falls under the "mood disorder" category, but does this seem like a misnomer to anyone else? Wouldn't it make more sense to call it an "energy disorder," given that the defining symptom is a lack of energy, fatigue, and lack of ambition?

The term "mood" makes it sound temporary and has a negative connotation imo, almost as if you're incapable of regulating your own emotions. In reality, more often than not depression is a chronic state of being, not a transient mood. If it was indeed just the latter, then the fix would be becoming happier, but if it's the former, then it's recharging your life-battery (or for the more spiritually minded among you, revitalizing your lifeforce) -- which is a very different thing from finding happiness.

This characterization of depression is probably partly responsible for the misconceptions laypeople have about it, ex. parents who think you can come out of depression by "changing your attitude." If they were told their child was suffering from an energy disorder, not a mood disorder, I think they'd be more likely to take it seriously and to understand it better.

I think this redefinition would also make it easier to digest the idea that depression might actually be an evolutionarily advantageous set of behaviours that helps you survive in a particular circumstance by essentially putting your body into hibernation mode. Viewed this way, depression is not a sign that your brain is "broken" or "imbalanced"; rather, it would be an expected reaction to undergoing a high-effort activity that was not followed up by an equally restorative activity. The phenomenon of depressed people not wanting to get better is also better understood under this framework, because we understand that getting better requires energy that they don't have to spare.

Just something I've been thinking about lately, haven't looked at it from all angles yet. What are your guys' thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree? @Forever Sleep
 
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avalokitesvara

avalokitesvara

bodhisattva
Nov 28, 2024
251
This makes sense to me. The defining experience of depression for me is lack of volition and anhedonia. I do not have the drive to do things that other people seem to. The most distress I feel comes from this feeling of wtf am I supposed to do with all this time in this lifespan I am afflicted with? There's just nothing that I feel a desire for, other than peace, quiet and stillness.

"Mood" doesn't make sense to me either. Happiness and sadness are fleeting, sure they come and go, but depression doesn't really have to do with these feelings, to me. I can observe a feeling and feel separate from it. I can't get out from and observe at a remove this condition of being that is depression. It constitutes my reality, it is my inviolable perspective. It's not transient like all moods are.

Anhedonia means I don't receive positive reinforcement from doing things. So maybe there is a reward/reinforcement imbalance element too, perhaps linked to dopamine such as in other disorders such as ADHD.

I also agree that it would help others understand. My mother said to me recently "you know, you're going to have to get control of yourself soon" and I just had to laugh because the notion that I could just suddenly decide to have volition and experience pleasure from life was so misguided.
 
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J

J&L383

Enlightened
Jul 18, 2023
1,110
Some interesting food for thought. The "science" of psychology has always been fraught with the unproved theories of those who claim their sanity to be superior, in my view. 🤷‍♂️
 
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exhumed101

exhumed101

Experienced
Nov 25, 2024
224
Depression technically falls under the "mood disorder" category, but does this seem like a misnomer to anyone else? Wouldn't it make more sense to call it an "energy disorder," given that the defining symptom is a lack of energy, fatigue, and lack of ambition?

The term "mood" makes it sound temporary and has a negative connotation imo, almost as if you're incapable of regulating your own emotions. In reality, more often than not depression is a chronic state of being, not a transient mood. If it was indeed just the latter, then the fix would be becoming happier, but if it's the former, then it's recharging your life-battery (or for the more spiritually minded among you, revitalizing your lifeforce) -- which is a very different thing from finding happiness.

This characterization of depression is probably partly responsible for the misconceptions laypeople have about it, ex. parents who think you can come out of depression by "changing your attitude." If they were told their child was suffering from an energy disorder, not a mood disorder, I think they'd be more likely to take it seriously and to understand it better.

I think this redefinition would also make it easier to digest the idea that depression might actually be an evolutionarily advantageous set of behaviours that helps you survive in a particular circumstance by essentially putting your body into hibernation mode. Viewed this way, depression is not a sign that your brain is "broken" or "imbalanced"; rather, it would be an expected reaction to undergoing a high-effort activity that was not followed up by an equally restorative activity. The phenomenon of depressed people not wanting to get better is also better understood under this framework, because we understand that getting better requires energy that they don't have to spare.

Just something I've been thinking about lately, haven't looked at it from all angles yet. What are your guys' thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree? @Forever Sleep
Hm
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Visionary
Apr 15, 2024
2,016
The defining symptom of depression is not always only lack of energy, fatigue and lack of ambition. There is also anhedonia, prolonged sadness, excessive feelings of guilt, low self-esteem, either insomnia or too much sleeping and irritability.
 
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yxmux

yxmux

👁️‍🗨️
Apr 16, 2024
171
It would be more accurate to call it an affective disorder, which encompasses what you are describing above.
 
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Alexei_Kirillov

Alexei_Kirillov

i must rest here a moment
Mar 9, 2024
1,311
The defining symptom of depression is not always only lack of energy, fatigue and lack of ambition. There is also anhedonia, prolonged sadness, excessive feelings of guilt, low self-esteem, either insomnia or too much sleeping and irritability.
Right, it's certainly not the only symptom, but I would argue it's the "core" symptom that many of the other ones flow from. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a depressed person who didn't suffer from some form of lack of energy (which anhedonia, prolonged sadness, and oversleeping are all related to), but you might readily find some who, to take one example, don't have low self-esteem (such as myself).
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Visionary
Apr 15, 2024
2,016
Right, it's certainly not the only symptom, but I would argue it's the "core" symptom that many of the other ones flow from. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a depressed person who didn't suffer from some form of lack of energy (which anhedonia, prolonged sadness, and oversleeping are all related to), but you might readily find some who, to take one example, don't have low self-esteem (such as myself).
Yeah okay, I guess it depends on what you mean by low energy. If it's physical fatigue etc. There are depressed people who still work, exercise and are physically healthy. Depression is mainly seen as a mental disorder. But you are right, perhaps it should not be seen as distinct from physical states of being. An energy disorder would be a new way of studying it, especially if it gets rid of the stark mind-body dichotomy.
 
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Alexei_Kirillov

Alexei_Kirillov

i must rest here a moment
Mar 9, 2024
1,311
Yeah okay, I guess it depends on what you mean by low energy. If it's physical fatigue etc. There are depressed people who still work, exercise and are physically healthy. Depression is mainly seen as a mental disorder. But you are right, perhaps it should not be seen as distinct from physical states of being. An energy disorder would be a new way of studying it, especially if it gets rid of the stark mind-body dichotomy.
Yeah my bad, I probably should've been more clear that I'm not necessarily referring to physical energy. I used to fall under the "high-functioning" bucket and so was working, exercising, etc. but I still suffered from lack of energy in the sense that all of these activities took more out of me than they would've in "the before times." I've often heard it analogized to moving through the world with a sack of bricks tied to your ankle -- it's like there's just an extra mental hurdle you have to overcome for everything you do.
 
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P

Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
12,816
Exhaution (mental and physical) can be result in a depressive disorder. I would say that is the part when we feel we have no energy.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
12,225
Depression technically falls under the "mood disorder" category, but does this seem like a misnomer to anyone else? Wouldn't it make more sense to call it an "energy disorder," given that the defining symptom is a lack of energy, fatigue, and lack of ambition?

The term "mood" makes it sound temporary and has a negative connotation imo, almost as if you're incapable of regulating your own emotions. In reality, more often than not depression is a chronic state of being, not a transient mood. If it was indeed just the latter, then the fix would be becoming happier, but if it's the former, then it's recharging your life-battery (or for the more spiritually minded among you, revitalizing your lifeforce) -- which is a very different thing from finding happiness.

This characterization of depression is probably partly responsible for the misconceptions laypeople have about it, ex. parents who think you can come out of depression by "changing your attitude." If they were told their child was suffering from an energy disorder, not a mood disorder, I think they'd be more likely to take it seriously and to understand it better.

I think this redefinition would also make it easier to digest the idea that depression might actually be an evolutionarily advantageous set of behaviours that helps you survive in a particular circumstance by essentially putting your body into hibernation mode. Viewed this way, depression is not a sign that your brain is "broken" or "imbalanced"; rather, it would be an expected reaction to undergoing a high-effort activity that was not followed up by an equally restorative activity. The phenomenon of depressed people not wanting to get better is also better understood under this framework, because we understand that getting better requires energy that they don't have to spare.

Just something I've been thinking about lately, haven't looked at it from all angles yet. What are your guys' thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree? @Forever Sleep

I saw once in an article where they broke down depressed into 'deep - rest'. As you say- the bodies natural reaction in dealing with too much stress is to basically shut it down. That in that way- it is supposed to benefit us.

I truly wish they would define and diagnose it more accurately though. I'm not even sure if I'm depressed to be honest.

You're definition of an energy disorder does make sense but again, there are variations I suppose. There are plenty of people working full time who are suffering with it. 1 in 3 employes in my friend's workplace was on antidepressants!

Sometimes I wonder if something awful happens that triggers it and then, we just (sometimes) don't seem to fully recover. One thing I definitely believe is- we have brains that learn well via repetition. If we think pessimistically on a regular basis, it seems logical that we become really good at it! In that sense, I agree with the OP, that prolonged depression can start to feel like a part of our personality. To the extent that we can't picture 'us' as being 'us' without it.
 
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SilentSadness

SilentSadness

Sleepy.
Feb 28, 2023
1,408
Depression to me doesn't seem like a disorder, it seems perfectly reasonable considering the tragic state of living and the suffering one has to experience, for no reason at all. Someone who's happy despite that is the unreasonable one, that's just blissful ignorance and delusion. Depression does not have a scientific description and is diagnosed by "someone with low mood or energy" which just doesn't make any sense because that's a symptom. Generally, the problem is suffering and living conditions so the treatment for depression would be improving the life situation. Unfortunately, people are obsessed with inventing illnesses to describe people who are not as delusional as them. But I agree, depression is not a sign of disorder, that's why so many people have it and so predictably.
 
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OnMyLast Legs

OnMyLast Legs

Too many regrets
Oct 29, 2024
210
Even when I can get myself to exercise depressed, performance is lower.
 
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MatrixPrisoner

MatrixPrisoner

Enlightened
Jul 8, 2023
1,834
No, it should be classified as an "in-touch with reality" non-disorder.
 
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Tombs_in_your_eyes

Tombs_in_your_eyes

Probably crying
Oct 18, 2024
129
Calling depression a 'mood disorder' makes little sense to me. It would be like calling a broken leg a 'pain disorder' - like, yeah, if you've just broken your leg it's going to hurt, but calling it a 'pain disorder' doesn't give you any useful information as to what's actually wrong with your leg that's causing the pain.

The characterisation of depression that makes the most sense to me is that of learned helplessness.


If you try and try and try at something (being happy / fulfilled / whatever your goals in life are) and you keep failing, eventually you'll learn that nothing you do really matters.
 
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-Link-

-Link-

Member
Aug 25, 2018
638
I wouldn't take issue with "mood disorder" as a label itself so much as how the label is used: Telling a parent their child has a "mood disorder" as if that's supposed to mean something to the parents.

It would be better to say, "Your child has a clinical condition that manifests as an episodic or persistent low mood, inability to feel pleasure, loss of interest and motivation, and diminished energy levels. Science does not fully understand how or why this happens. We just know that it's a thing, and we make informed guesses on how to best treat it. Here are some information pamphlets that describe it in layman's terms instead of making you discern what we mean when we say 'mood disorder.'"

Picture it: Parent takes their child to the doctor. Doctor tells the parent, "Your child has depression. We'll put them on a two-year wait list to see a psychiatrist. In the meantime, here are some antidepressants, and there's the door."

Whether we label it a "mood disorder" or an "energy disorder," we will be misunderstood either way. (See the stigma against people with chronic fatigue syndrome who I might imagine would caution us, "Don't be so quick to adopt the 'energy' label.")

The crux of this, I think, is in the messaging and having doctors proactively answer questions that patients, parents, and other concerned parties don't even know to ask. This, of course, in addition to efforts to reduce stigma on a wider societal level -- part of which would involve putting much less emphasis on the clinical labels and more focus on the actual symptoms.
 
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N

notreallybored

Experienced
Nov 26, 2024
263
ב''ה,

If you're miserable in mood but moving around, and can afford medical attention, you'll possibly be diagnosed with something other than "depression" based on the whimsy of doctors and whatever the current situation of the DSM or equivalent where you are is.

Technically as much as civilization and its discontents melancholia is common, and "depressant" drugs including alcohol, benzos and cannabis can bring out these symptoms in enough of the population that they were ever called that, and the original somewhat imperfect ("barbaric," "stone-age" some might say) medication research approach was with the forced swim test in rodents, acknowledging the symptoms had anything to do with mood was meant to encourage a more holistic approach. In practice it also medicalizes and imprisons anyone simply unhappy, but the intention was perhaps to attempt to quantify and improve actual happiness and life satisfaction, just filtered through a billion business needs and those annoying psych majors you knew from school.

It's entirely possible to take 'stimulants' (the classic original antidepressants) and end up simply 'stuck on' existential problems and low mood, and since most of those psych majors did I believe there may have been some good faith Itrying to address that rather than continuing to get everyone tweaked on repeating their complaints.

That said, it's a mess, and numerous physiological components including the various circadian and possible torpor reflexes (lots of populations faced lots of hard winters and famines), nutrition, vitamin D status, actual disease, feed back to the brain's perception of mood, and possibly (fairly absolutely evidenced at this point) vice-versa.

Without this nuance though, OP's proposal is a regression to putting everyone on tweak and then bagging them for psychosis, whether they're handling it well but promoting unpopular societal change, or actually seeing things that aren't there after the honeymoon period with those drugs wears off.

That said a pill that would bring happiness and content with the current state of the world, aside from any minimal peace in global conflicts recently won, is particularly existentially horrifying these days though might be better than actually experiencing not being able to afford food with no way to even work that off without passing modern hiring practices.
 
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avalokitesvara

avalokitesvara

bodhisattva
Nov 28, 2024
251
Calling depression a 'mood disorder' makes little sense to me. It would be like calling a broken leg a 'pain disorder' - like, yeah, if you've just broken your leg it's going to hurt, but calling it a 'pain disorder' doesn't give you any useful information as to what's actually wrong with your leg that's causing the pain.

The characterisation of depression that makes the most sense to me is that of learned helplessness.


If you try and try and try at something (being happy / fulfilled / whatever your goals in life are) and you keep failing, eventually you'll learn that nothing you do really matters.
This doesn't explain people who seemingly came into the world this way, without any goals and already highly attuned to meaninglessness. It's not a disease but a state of being.
 
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Electra

Electra

The relief of giving in to destruction
Jul 1, 2024
582
No, it should be classified as an "in-touch with reality" non-disorder.
Love this. Kinda reminds me of this quote: "Life has no meaning the moment you lose the illusion of being eternal."
 
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L9my

L9my

they are dead, for they have no dreams
Nov 22, 2024
982
This doesn't explain people who seemingly came into the world this way, without any goals and already highly attuned to meaninglessness. It's not a disease but a state of being.
that's me!
 
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hang in there

hang in there

get it, har har
Apr 17, 2025
200
Depression technically falls under the "mood disorder" category, but does this seem like a misnomer to anyone else? Wouldn't it make more sense to call it an "energy disorder," given that the defining symptom is a lack of energy, fatigue, and lack of ambition?

The term "mood" makes it sound temporary and has a negative connotation imo, almost as if you're incapable of regulating your own emotions. In reality, more often than not depression is a chronic state of being, not a transient mood. If it was indeed just the latter, then the fix would be becoming happier, but if it's the former, then it's recharging your life-battery (or for the more spiritually minded among you, revitalizing your lifeforce) -- which is a very different thing from finding happiness.

This characterization of depression is probably partly responsible for the misconceptions laypeople have about it, ex. parents who think you can come out of depression by "changing your attitude." If they were told their child was suffering from an energy disorder, not a mood disorder, I think they'd be more likely to take it seriously and to understand it better.

I think this redefinition would also make it easier to digest the idea that depression might actually be an evolutionarily advantageous set of behaviours that helps you survive in a particular circumstance by essentially putting your body into hibernation mode. Viewed this way, depression is not a sign that your brain is "broken" or "imbalanced"; rather, it would be an expected reaction to undergoing a high-effort activity that was not followed up by an equally restorative activity. The phenomenon of depressed people not wanting to get better is also better understood under this framework, because we understand that getting better requires energy that they don't have to spare.

Just something I've been thinking about lately, haven't looked at it from all angles yet. What are your guys' thoughts? Do you agree? Disagree? @Forever Sleep
Every time I see this type of uneducated shit on the internet my eyes somehow roll back farther in my head than the last time -_-
Allow me to tell you how exactly you are wrong.

From a historical perspective there never was anything known as "depression." Since ancient greece a disease called melancholia has been observed - over millenia it has been mostly known as a movement disorder because the main observable sign is basically a complete halt of activity and slowness of decision, speech, voluntary action, even gastrointestinal speed. In the 17-1800s it was noted to very frequently occur hand in hand with mania, and the two forms of illness were labelled under one familial disease process, "folie circular" or circular insanity, because it happened in cycles rather than as a degenerative state like a dementia. Circular insanity was treated in locked asylums as a very dangerous illness of the brain. A central nervous system disease. Because it affected the psyche (mind), it was called a "psychosis."

Around the same time sprouted an idea in outpatient neurology clinics that certain people had "weakening of the nerves," or neurasthenia, which caused them fatigue, loss of control over their emotions and anxiety level, easy susceptability to stress, basically what we know as burnout. Because this was a problem of the nervous system besides the brain, it was called a "neurosis." (This term was applied to any general neurological illness such as stroke, etc.) They considered this a problem of the peripheral nervous system (related to adrenal activity) for which thousands of quack remedies came into being; the uniting theme in these "cures" was the effect of placebo. One of these happened to be psychotherapy, popularized by Freud (a neurologist). It was discovered that really all these patients needed was some sort of social support and reinforcement of positive behaviors; the only "medical" need they had was some way to calm their bodies down when very upset. So they were given sedative drugs as needed, which worked well.

Now the term "depression" originally was applied to the concept of melancholia by Emil Kraepelin - he referred to circular insanity as "manic-depressive insanity" because to him the depression of activity in melancholia was the most important aspect to note. Over time the term "depression" became so overused, misunderstood, and bastardized, that it came to be applied to cases of neurosis in addition to psychosis - and there was a very fine deliniation of the two. Neurasthenia (neurotic depression) was treated with psychoanalysis and lifestyle changes, melancholia (psychotic depression) was treated with medical interventions. They never overlapped. All literature was very firm and direct in describing these as completely separate and unrelated problems.

Until 1980.

Robert Spitzer was an ex psychoanalyst with a chip on his shoulder who was put in charge of organizing the third edition of the DSM. The first 2 DSMs were very small army medicine manuals used to quickly screen american soldiers for any sort of mental impairment or personality issue. Spitzer was an enormous egomaniac and wanted to change that very drastically. Out of thin air he conjured the plethora of "diagnoses" known today. Initially the DSM (1/2) was split very cleanly into "psychoses" (physical diseases of the brain) which included things like dementia, autism, manic-depressive illness, and schizophrenia; and "neuroses" which included neurasthenia and its offshoots, problems of personality development, criminal and sexual behavior issues, etc. So for example each diagnosis had its own suffix - and the two "depressive" disorders in each section were depressive psychosis, and depressive neurosis. Spitzer hated the organization and suffixes so did away with all of them. He decided to mix together the two very different illnesses of melancholia and neurasthenia under a new term he invented, "major depressive disorder." Everything was appended with "disorder" instead of the previous way. Everything was candycoated to look the same, with the stated and express intent to sell more medications to this now inflated group of patients, which seconds before that keystroke it was inappropriate to treat in the same way.

In addition, Spitzer invented all kinds of offshoots of neurasthenia - "anxiety disorders," he called them, and made up as many as he could with zero historical precedence. Again with the stated and express purpose of selling drugs specific to each "anxiety disorder." He was an unapologetically evil man and thought he was really improving the field with his "insight." The only one with any sturdy background was OCD, but mixing it together with the rest was a mistake still not fully corrected today. Anyhow, he was very proud of his work.

The worst of it was the splitting of melancholia from manic depressive illness. It was no longer a singular disease process that could manifest as either melancholia or mania at different points of the patient's life - now it was "major depressive disorder" and something completely separate, "bipolar disorder." So all manic depressive patients without a history of experiencing mania were lumped together with the 10x higher population of neurotics, their physical brain problems lost in the sea of life problems.

So today when someone who would previously have been diagnosed with manic-depression is stamped with "major depressive disorder," they are given statistical treatment - "MOST people with that label respond to yoga, diet changes, job changes, therapy, soul searching, attitude changes, etc etc etc... they just aren't trying hard enough!!!" You can see where this thinking leads and it is extremely dangerous. The few desperately in need of physical interventions will never get the ones they need because they have been erroneously lumped with the worried well. And the best intervention for melancholia regardless of manic history, has always been lithium and electroconvulsive therapy.

If you would like to read more on this topic I can suggest a few authors, experts in the field of mood disorders and psychiatric diagnosis.
Gordon Parker - Melancholia: A disorder of movement and mood
Michael Alan Taylor and Max Fink - Melancholia: The Diagnosis, Pathophysiology and Treatment of Depressive Illness
Edward Shorter - How Everyone Became Depressed: The Rise and Fall of the Nervous Breakdown

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

EDIT:
I got distracted... I completely forgot to address the aspect of "mood."

Since the deliniation of "neurotic depression" and "psychotic depression", there have been ways to identify the two by their differences, mainly in internal state:

Melancholia presents with an extremely entrenched, unchangeable mood of despair. Anhedonia is very prominent, not even physical pleasures such as sex or food can reach the patient. There can be extreme implacable anxiety and physical agitation that can be severe enough to cause a heart attack, or such inertia that the patient cannot move for days even to close their eyes. Nothing can reach them. they cannot have emotional reactions, and outwardly their face may resemble that of a parkinson's patient - they cannot emote. Their distress is not a reaction to outside circumstances and it is not rational. One of the most prominent signs is an unshakable compulsion to commit suicide, they might not even know why, they just have to do it and are very secretive and planful about it. They physically cannot cry. They cannot sleep, they don't eat and they lose weight, their stress system is in such permanent overdrive that they sweat heavily, have a fast heart rate, high temperature, and have an abnormal circadian rhythm. Notably they blame themselves for everything and are consumed by irrational guilt over the smallest imagined slight.

Neurasthenics are almost the opposite. Their emotions are reactive to the environment, even improving if their situation does, they are extremely sensitive to change and can be labile in their expression, ranging from very anxious to angry at others to helpless and defeated. They can cry and are pretty tearful. If they are suicidal at all it is impulsive and may be unlikely to work. They may even desperately want help and simply make a gesture to get it. They overeat and oversleep and blame others around them for everything, feeling immense self pity. Their body works properly and their vital signs are normal. They can feel pleasure even if their motivation to do things is lower than usual. They respond very well to social kindness and change of atmosphere. Outwardly they do not seem physically "ill" in the same sense as one gets by looking at a melancholic.

Neither of these is any sort of "adaptation" and neither is useful to anyone.
 
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