Pro-Choice Arguments

[lemmeeleev]

[Insert pro-choice vs pro-life argument here]

There's so many threads on this, maybe we can throw all of them into one? Post anything related to pro-life and/or pro-choice here.

 

[Its911]

[Insert pro-choice vs pro-life argument here]

There's so many threads on this, maybe we can throw all of them into one? Post anything related to pro-life and/or pro-choice here.

Its your life, you didnt ask to be born, if you dont want to be here, as long as you dont hurt anyone when you CTB by all means go ahead.

If you have the right to live i believe you have the right to a humane death.

 

[English_Rose]

I've alway's said "we are born to die" which is the absolute truth, we are also born without a contract that says we must live life until we die of natural causes! so, having said that, as individuals we have the right to decide if, when, why and how we die! no permission needed.
Sure, it's going to change the lives of the loved ones you leave behind, it's going to break some of those loved one's BUT you should not live in misery, just to keep them happy...So, do what you feel is best. And only you can decide if you want to live, or die..

 

[Lady black]

The right to live is a human´s right, the right to die should it also be.

 

[reveriewong]

My stance is pro-life.

There have been many people who have attempted suicide, and failed. Many of them see it as a new chance at bettering themselves and their lives. Not everyone, but many. Many people also, in the process of their suicide attempt, realize they feel ambivalent about dying.

If someone is truly suicidal, they will do it without any hesitation at all--right to the very end.

I believe that humans have inherent worth and that our decisions matter. It matters whether we live or die.

I wager that most people who are suicidal are because of deep emotional and/or physical/spiritual pain, and a sense of hopelessness. I'm not convinced that someone who is deeply suicidal/depressed is in a clear enough state of mind to make such a decision as to end their life. I say this as someone who has been deeply suicidal and depressed. If I were to go through that again, I would hope that I realize that I am not thinking logically or rationally, and that it is an emotional state is clouding my decision-making process. It is not so simple, of course, because it can be really hard to go from zero to one, then two, and then three.

But we must try to get from zero to one. Once you get to one, it gets easier to get to two. And then to three.

Getting to one is better than staying at zero.

There's the possibility of getting to one. There's the possibility of things getting better. To what extent can we trust our feelings of hopelessness and desperation to recognize this?

 

[Johnnythefox]

 

[Redt2go]

My stance is pro-life.

There have been many people who have attempted suicide, and failed. Many of them see it as a new chance at bettering themselves and their lives. Not everyone, but many. Many people also, in the process of their suicide attempt, realize they feel ambivalent about dying.

If someone is truly suicidal, they will do it without any hesitation at all--right to the very end.

I believe that humans have inherent worth and that our decisions matter. It matters whether we live or die.

I wager that most people who are suicidal are because of deep emotional and/or physical/spiritual pain, and a sense of hopelessness. I'm not convinced that someone who is deeply suicidal/depressed is in a clear enough state of mind to make such a decision as to end their life. I say this as someone who has been deeply suicidal and depressed. If I were to go through that again, I would hope that I realize that I am not thinking logically or rationally, and that it is an emotional state is clouding my decision-making process. It is not so simple, of course, because it can be really hard to go from zero to one, then two, and then three.

But we must try to get from zero to one. Once you get to one, it gets easier to get to two. And then to three.

Getting to one is better than staying at zero.

There's the possibility of getting to one. There's the possibility of things getting better. To what extent can we trust our feelings of hopelessness and desperation to recognize this?

So you're only on the site to encourage people not to ctb?

 

[cornflowerblue]

View attachment 8305

I think it's fine

My stance is pro-life.

There have been many people who have attempted suicide, and failed. Many of them see it as a new chance at bettering themselves and their lives. Not everyone, but many. Many people also, in the process of their suicide attempt, realize they feel ambivalent about dying.

If someone is truly suicidal, they will do it without any hesitation at all--right to the very end.

I believe that humans have inherent worth and that our decisions matter. It matters whether we live or die.

I wager that most people who are suicidal are because of deep emotional and/or physical/spiritual pain, and a sense of hopelessness. I'm not convinced that someone who is deeply suicidal/depressed is in a clear enough state of mind to make such a decision as to end their life. I say this as someone who has been deeply suicidal and depressed. If I were to go through that again, I would hope that I realize that I am not thinking logically or rationally, and that it is an emotional state is clouding my decision-making process. It is not so simple, of course, because it can be really hard to go from zero to one, then two, and then three.

But we must try to get from zero to one. Once you get to one, it gets easier to get to two. And then to three.

Getting to one is better than staying at zero.

There's the possibility of getting to one. There's the possibility of things getting better. To what extent can we trust our feelings of hopelessness and desperation to recognize this?

Dignity is a big cornerstone of pro-choice. As you said, if somebody really wants to die, they'll die. Legalizing ctb means they can die with dignity and provide their loved ones an opportunity for closure and proper goodbyes. Even if you're pro-life, allowing ctb can be seen as harm reduction. It's going to happen no matter what, so society may benefit from acknowledging that and putting procedures in place to mitigate the damage. Legalizing ctb could even reduce suicide rates. When elderly or terminal people get approved for euthanasia or assisted suicide, it actually decreases the likelihood of them doing it. The security that they have a way out if things get bad ends up being enough for them to pull through and live until their natural death.

 

[ayb]

For the record I am pro-choice but I'll play devil's advocate and bring up the most common anti-choice argument which is "90% of people who attempt suicide and fail do not go on to kill themselves therefore the draconian restrictions on suicide are justified."

What would be the reply to this from you guys?

 

[Redt2go]

For the record I am pro-choice but I'll play devil's advocate and bring up the most common anti-choice argument which is "90% of people who attempt suicide and fail do not go on to kill themselves therefore the draconian restrictions on suicide are justified."

What would be the reply to this from you guys?

90% of known attempts... We don't know the real number

 

[ayb]

90% of known attempts... We don't know the real number

True. My argument is that if I am mentally competent and can consent to suicide, then it is ultimately my choice. What happens is that people will claim everybody with a mental illness is thus incompetent and lacks the capacity to consent to suicide. I have never seen a study that shows most people with severe depression for example are incompetent/lacking capacity.

There was a study done in the Netherlands recently that looked at people who requested euthanasia for mental illnesses. The most common reason by far for rejection was that the doctors felt that their conditions were not severe enough or that they didn't exhaust all reasonable avenues of treatment. Not because they were incompetent/lacking capacity.

 

[Redt2go]

True. My argument is that if I am mentally competent and can consent to suicide, then it is ultimately my choice. What happens is that people will claim everybody with a mental illness is thus incompetent and lacks the capacity to consent to suicide. I have never seen a study that shows most people with severe depression for example are incompetent/lacking capacity.

There was a study done in the Netherlands recently that looked at people who requested euthanasia for mental illnesses. The most common reason by far for rejection was that the doctors felt that their conditions were not severe enough or that they didn't exhaust all reasonable avenues of treatment. Not because they were incompetent/lacking capacity.

Yeah I think your argument is solid

 

[GeorgeJL]

Here I will sum it all up into one sentence.

My life, my death, my choice, because we should be able to control our deaths, as much as we control our lives.

 

[Nitromask]

My stance is pro-life.

You may have come to the wrong place

It matters whether we live or die.

What makes you think this? In the grand scheme of things, I would have to disagree.

 

[cornflowerblue]

90% of known attempts... We don't know the real number

There are diagnoses like BPD that include frequent suicide attempts without the actual intent of dying. The stats don't sort out who was/wasn't serious, whether the attempts were impulsive, whether the person has had treatment, etc

 

[Onomotopoeia]

If someone is truly suicidal, they will do it without any hesitation at all--right to the very end.

I would argue that this itself is inherently false. This very forum is full of people who struggle not because they are unsure but because the risk of surviving is huge and many of those survivals come with the promise of continuing living in worse condition than you started.

Even some of the more "sure" methods such as a gun still carry tremendous risk your survive with deformities and/or brain damage. The same is true for almost all other methods it's the reason this site exists. I concede there is without a doubt some people who are not truly suicidal and/or will go on to not be suicidal however hesitation because you may make things worse is not the same as hesitation because you are unsure. That distinction is important.

I wager that most people who are suicidal are because of deep emotional and/or physical/spiritual pain, and a sense of hopelessness. I'm not convinced that someone who is deeply suicidal/depressed is in a clear enough state of mind to make such a decision as to end their life. I say this as someone who has been deeply suicidal and depressed. If I were to go through that again, I would hope that I realize that I am not thinking logically or rationally, and that it is an emotional state is clouding my decision-making process.

Once again I need to concede that this can often be the case. Mostly in the case of adolescents who imo should be excluded from all such discussions for exactly the reason you mention here. As a child your mind has not even finished developing and things will greatly change by the time you become an adult. That said we need to recognize that adults even in throws of depression are perfectly capable of making rational decisions in the absence of actual current trauma. It happens all the time. These people live and function in our society now.

The last point I make is simply that not all who are suicidal are in some deep emotional pain. Some simply lack joy and that should be enough.

There's the possibility of getting to one. There's the possibility of things getting better. To what extent can we trust our feelings of hopelessness and desperation to recognize this?

Ok my real last point. There is not always a possibility of improvement it's a naive statement sometimes the only reason you want to CTB is boredom with life and that should be ok. As an adult nobody should force life upon you any more than someone else should be able to force death on you. At it's core those are exactly the same things.

It would actually be fiscally responsible to allow CTB with a waiting list for adults that requires you pay for services of death including funeral/burial etc.

Life has intrinsic value but nobody can know the value of your life but you.

 

[ayb]

My stance is pro-life.

There have been many people who have attempted suicide, and failed. Many of them see it as a new chance at bettering themselves and their lives. Not everyone, but many. Many people also, in the process of their suicide attempt, realize they feel ambivalent about dying.

If someone is truly suicidal, they will do it without any hesitation at all--right to the very end.

I believe that humans have inherent worth and that our decisions matter. It matters whether we live or die.

I wager that most people who are suicidal are because of deep emotional and/or physical/spiritual pain, and a sense of hopelessness. I'm not convinced that someone who is deeply suicidal/depressed is in a clear enough state of mind to make such a decision as to end their life. I say this as someone who has been deeply suicidal and depressed. If I were to go through that again, I would hope that I realize that I am not thinking logically or rationally, and that it is an emotional state is clouding my decision-making process. It is not so simple, of course, because it can be really hard to go from zero to one, then two, and then three.

But we must try to get from zero to one. Once you get to one, it gets easier to get to two. And then to three.

Getting to one is better than staying at zero.

There's the possibility of getting to one. There's the possibility of things getting better. To what extent can we trust our feelings of hopelessness and desperation to recognize this?

See that's where I disagree. Suicide is much of a cat-and-mouse game with the authorities and society at large. Take N for example. It is only a matter of time before the authorities in Mexico find out and crack down on A. SN is becoming increasingly popular, but how long until governments start noticing and banning the sale of it to the public without a license? You cannot order SN online in Canada due to new regulations now.

Wrt to regret, let me tell you something: I have the freedom to make choices I regret. Speaking as someone with two attempts (which I did not regret) never in my life have I ever regreted having the freedom to make the wrong decision. Let me give you an example: a couple of years ago I got into a motorcycle accident which permanently fucked my right leg to the point where I lost some toes and ended up suffering from severe pain which still flares up occasionally.

Now that is a decision which I regret because I was not wearing leather pants and motorcycle boots which would have protected my leg and toes. However it was ultimately my decision not to wear them, and while I do regret it, I do not ever regret having the freedom to make that choice.

This goes back to mental comptence and capacity. The notion that mental illness = automatic incompetence and incapacity is just wrong. Can mental illness affect competence and capacity? Absolutely. Does this mean that most people who have depression, anxiety, and etc fall under this category? I have never seen actual proof of this beyond baseless assumptions. Regret and an impulsive decision for example has nothing to do with if that person was competent enough with the capacity to make that decision in the first place.

 

[Nitromask]

It is only a matter of time before the authorities in Mexico find out and crack down on A.

I would honestly be surprised if this was even on the Mexican authorities radar to be honest. Have you seen what's going on in that country?

 

[ron_g]

Should suicide be legal? - Wikiversity

en.wikiversity.org

Should voluntary euthanasia be legal? - Wikiversity

en.wikiversity.org