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Matchaaa

Matchaaa

Please excuse any tone misunderstandings,thank you
Dec 10, 2025
269
Another slightly rambling piece of reflection ^ ^

Having children is not merely a personal choice, but a major life decision that carries significant ethical weight and responsibility. No one can guarantee a life that is always stable or consistently experienced as good. In reality, every life trajectory carries the possibility that, at some point, things may fundamentally fall apart—for instance, a person may find life meaningful and beautiful in the first half, only to later feel that it is no longer worth living due to uncontrollable chronic pain, illness, or existential crises.

This possibility turns procreation into a genuine moral gamble. Parents cannot foresee whether their child will encounter such a rupture, yet it is the child who ultimately bears the consequences. In this sense, non-existence is better than existence. Choosing to have children cautiously—or even choosing not to have them at all—is more responsible than blind optimism. To bring a child into the world is, in effect, to stake a new life—along with its capacity for suffering—on an uncertain outcome. No matter how much effort parents put in, unforeseen events will always occur. This is precisely why careful reflection before choosing to have a child is so important.

Each person's adaptability and disposition are fundamentally different. This is why many people believe that "human potential is limitless" and begin to imagine how wonderful their child's future might be—and that hope is understandable. However, what is often overlooked is the other side of this idea: just because parents perceive an environment as acceptable does not mean the new life will experience it the same way. To have a child is, in effect, to choose their country of birth, their upbringing, and even their social position.

If, after growing up, that child finds themselves unable to adapt to this environment—and has no realistic means of leaving—they may begin to contemplate suicide. Yet at that point, parents and society may respond by saying, "How can you be so irresponsible?" This reveals a moral double standard: when deciding to have a child, one is not expected to foresee the factors that will shape that child's life; yet when that life becomes unbearable, the individual is expected to endure suffering indefinitely and bear the burden of that mismatch.

But if that life had never existed, there would be no suicide to begin with. So What right does society have to condemn someone, without reflecting on the quality and trajectory of the life they were given? In procreation, parents are not held accountable for how their child may come to feel about existence; yet in the case of suicide, the child is expected to bear responsibility for the emotional pain their parents would experience. I understand that parents who lose a child suffer deeply. However, there may be more compassionate, non-judgmental ways to express that pain.

More realistically, it is impossible to ensure that no new lives are ever born. But before choosing to have a child, beyond considering one's own happiness and sense of meaning, could we also give more serious thought to the life we are choosing to bring into the world? After all, that future person will possess the same capacity for suffering as we do.

For example: Is the political environment of this country suitable for raising a child? If not, do I have the means to provide access to a better environment? How will the education system shape them? If the values of this society come into deep conflict with theirs in the future, can I give them the freedom to choose a different path? Is there sufficient financial stability? If the relationship breaks down, would I still be able to provide a stable and loving life?

I believe that if people approached procreation not only from self-interest but also with deeper ethical consideration, many forms of suffering could be reduced. At the same time, for those who are already living under adverse conditions, we must ask whether society provides adequate support systems to alleviate their suffering. And if an individual, after careful reflection, ultimately decides to end their life, should we respect their autonomy and allow the process to be peaceful and dignified—rather than forcing them to endure further pain even in their final moments?

After all, many methods of suicide are extremely painful, and we know that enduring such pain is deeply frightening.
 
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A

abstractcat7

Member
Apr 22, 2026
8
Brought into this world by two people's selfish desire, just to suffer, then get told to shut up if I ever complain about that suffering I never chose exacerbated by a world THEY created. Having children is treated like a right instead of one of the biggest responsibilities a human can ever choose to take on. Having children is selfish without even mentioning the amount of children living in orphanages and needing adoption. If someone can and will provide that child a good life while treating them properly, then there's no problem. I'm going to stop there before I share too much of my mind about it. I hate how some people treat having a child or getting a pet like picking up a new toy/hobby for their own enjoyment.
 
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niki wonoto

Experienced
Oct 10, 2019
248
I'm from Indonesia. First of all, I just want to say thank you very much, this is another rare 'deep post' on this website/forum that I honestly feel really worth discussing further.

Based from my own personal life's experiences (& story), I've concluded that unfortunately most people just don't think too much (nor deeply) when they give birth to children (born). And, to even put it more bluntly & harshly: children are simply just born due to their parents are having intercourse (sex), and babies are born as a 'consequence'. That's it. Nothing more than that, unfortunately.

The other important point that I want to emphasize is: I think parents (people, or human beings/human nature, generally speaking) largely underestimate the potential risks & consequences of life, so to speak, especially the 'bad/ugly sides' of life. Even when the parents *do* think that they're ready enough to have a child/kid, people usually just only think on the financial/economical aspects, ie.: they think/feel that they're already 'responsible enough' ready to 'make a baby' just simply because they're already financially stable/secure/okay, for example. But, people forget that life is SO MUCH MORE aspects than just only about the money/financial/economy aspect! (and therefore, also the associated potential risks & consequences too!).

Just to give some examples, life can have so MANY more problems like these:

- Health/illness/sickness/disease risk & problems
- Unforeseen/unpredictability/uncertainties risks & problems, such as: accidents, rape, bullying, trauma, etc2. Just like that popular/famous quote: "You're just only ONE bad day away from your whole life changed & ruined forever"!
- Relationships, social, or loneliness risks & problems
- Psychological risks & problems
- Mental health risks & problems
- even just as seemingly underestimated 'small/little' changes (or shifts) in how the children/kids would/will eventually think or feel about life!

I'm speaking all of these, actually based from my own life's experiences & story (just as I've said above).

Honestly, I'm (very) grateful/thankful that I was born in a 'happy family' / 'good family' background, even with 'good parents'. I've had a 'happy life' & good life admittedly back when I was small & young. I've had a 'privileged' life, admittedly, even when I'm not born in the first world countries (developed countries). People used to see my family back then even perhaps as the 'PERFECT family' who just seemed to 'have it all'! And of course, when I was young/small, I've never expected that life could eventually (unfortunately/sadly) turned into all of these 'predicaments', problems, stress, etc2. And the saddest thing is how I've now had a major (existential) depression, & passive suicidal ideation everyday, because I honestly feel like I'm just a 'middle-aged' loser/failure that becomes just a 'burden' & disappointment for my 'aging' parents.

I used to always say/comment on this website/forum that: ANYTHING could happen in life! including BAD things/events/circumstances/situation/conditions that is unforeseen, unpredictable, & uncertain!

Sadly & unfortunately, people too often just only 'naively' thinking about all the 'GOOD THINGS' when they've decided to have a child / bring a child into this world. My conclusion is that it's just human's nature (human nature), unfortunately. Our human nature mostly just 'lie/deceive/trick' us -somehow- deeply innate within our DNA biological programming & nature, that most people DON'T WANT to think about all the 'BAD THINGS' in life!

- Optimism bias
- Toxic positivity

These two are sadly deeply ingrained within the human nature. And you can see so MANY examples of this!

But, it should have been so obvious that, in life, there are GOOD and BAD things! So, why people often just only look at the 'GOOD' sides of life, and never / don't want to think about the 'BAD' sides of life (and especially again the *POTENTIAL* probabilities in the FUTURE which is full of uncertainties & unpredictabilities!), is just beyond me, honestly. It's just really sad.

"Ignorance is bliss" >> it's probably one of the true-est quotes that describes the human's condition, sadly/unfortunately. But again, having kids/children is not the same like having a pet (dogs, cats, etc2). You'll have an entirely new *HUMAN BEING* that risks SO MANY THINGS, especially the potential 'BAD' things / problems that I've just explained above! And sadly, usually only when it all already becomes TOO LATE that people (including parents) would perhaps only by then realize all the RISKS & CONSEQUENCES could/can have FATAL outcomes/events in life!


I wish life could be more than this... but, reality is cruel & often disappointing (Thanos' popular/famous quote)...
 
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P

PanaxMan

Specialist
Apr 11, 2023
380
Another slightly rambling piece of reflection ^ ^

Having children is not merely a personal choice, but a major life decision that carries significant ethical weight and responsibility. No one can guarantee a life that is always stable or consistently experienced as good. In reality, every life trajectory carries the possibility that, at some point, things may fundamentally fall apart—for instance, a person may find life meaningful and beautiful in the first half, only to later feel that it is no longer worth living due to uncontrollable chronic pain, illness, or existential crises.

This possibility turns procreation into a genuine moral gamble. Parents cannot foresee whether their child will encounter such a rupture, yet it is the child who ultimately bears the consequences. In this sense, non-existence is better than existence. Choosing to have children cautiously—or even choosing not to have them at all—is more responsible than blind optimism. To bring a child into the world is, in effect, to stake a new life—along with its capacity for suffering—on an uncertain outcome. No matter how much effort parents put in, unforeseen events will always occur. This is precisely why careful reflection before choosing to have a child is so important.

Each person's adaptability and disposition are fundamentally different. This is why many people believe that "human potential is limitless" and begin to imagine how wonderful their child's future might be—and that hope is understandable. However, what is often overlooked is the other side of this idea: just because parents perceive an environment as acceptable does not mean the new life will experience it the same way. To have a child is, in effect, to choose their country of birth, their upbringing, and even their social position.

If, after growing up, that child finds themselves unable to adapt to this environment—and has no realistic means of leaving—they may begin to contemplate suicide. Yet at that point, parents and society may respond by saying, "How can you be so irresponsible?" This reveals a moral double standard: when deciding to have a child, one is not expected to foresee the factors that will shape that child's life; yet when that life becomes unbearable, the individual is expected to endure suffering indefinitely and bear the burden of that mismatch.

But if that life had never existed, there would be no suicide to begin with. So What right does society have to condemn someone, without reflecting on the quality and trajectory of the life they were given? In procreation, parents are not held accountable for how their child may come to feel about existence; yet in the case of suicide, the child is expected to bear responsibility for the emotional pain their parents would experience. I understand that parents who lose a child suffer deeply. However, there may be more compassionate, non-judgmental ways to express that pain.

More realistically, it is impossible to ensure that no new lives are ever born. But before choosing to have a child, beyond considering one's own happiness and sense of meaning, could we also give more serious thought to the life we are choosing to bring into the world? After all, that future person will possess the same capacity for suffering as we do.

For example: Is the political environment of this country suitable for raising a child? If not, do I have the means to provide access to a better environment? How will the education system shape them? If the values of this society come into deep conflict with theirs in the future, can I give them the freedom to choose a different path? Is there sufficient financial stability? If the relationship breaks down, would I still be able to provide a stable and loving life?

I believe that if people approached procreation not only from self-interest but also with deeper ethical consideration, many forms of suffering could be reduced. At the same time, for those who are already living under adverse conditions, we must ask whether society provides adequate support systems to alleviate their suffering. And if an individual, after careful reflection, ultimately decides to end their life, should we respect their autonomy and allow the process to be peaceful and dignified—rather than forcing them to endure further pain even in their final moments?

After all, many methods of suicide are extremely painful, and we know that enduring such pain is deeply frightening.
I agree with you. It's why I don't judge anyone for not or having kids. It's just wether if they have the responsibility within them.
 
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Matchaaa

Matchaaa

Please excuse any tone misunderstandings,thank you
Dec 10, 2025
269
I'm from Indonesia. First of all, I just want to say thank you very much, this is another rare 'deep post' on this website/forum that I honestly feel really worth discussing further.

Based from my own personal life's experiences (& story), I've concluded that unfortunately most people just don't think too much (nor deeply) when they give birth to children (born). And, to even put it more bluntly & harshly: children are simply just born due to their parents are having intercourse (sex), and babies are born as a 'consequence'. That's it. Nothing more than that, unfortunately.

The other important point that I want to emphasize is: I think parents (people, or human beings/human nature, generally speaking) largely underestimate the potential risks & consequences of life, so to speak, especially the 'bad/ugly sides' of life. Even when the parents *do* think that they're ready enough to have a child/kid, people usually just only think on the financial/economical aspects, ie.: they think/feel that they're already 'responsible enough' ready to 'make a baby' just simply because they're already financially stable/secure/okay, for example. But, people forget that life is SO MUCH MORE aspects than just only about the money/financial/economy aspect! (and therefore, also the associated potential risks & consequences too!).

Just to give some examples, life can have so MANY more problems like these:

- Health/illness/sickness/disease risk & problems
- Unforeseen/unpredictability/uncertainties risks & problems, such as: accidents, rape, bullying, trauma, etc2. Just like that popular/famous quote: "You're just only ONE bad day away from your whole life changed & ruined forever"!
- Relationships, social, or loneliness risks & problems
- Psychological risks & problems
- Mental health risks & problems
- even just as seemingly underestimated 'small/little' changes (or shifts) in how the children/kids would/will eventually think or feel about life!

I'm speaking all of these, actually based from my own life's experiences & story (just as I've said above).

Honestly, I'm (very) grateful/thankful that I was born in a 'happy family' / 'good family' background, even with 'good parents'. I've had a 'happy life' & good life admittedly back when I was small & young. I've had a 'privileged' life, admittedly, even when I'm not born in the first world countries (developed countries). People used to see my family back then even perhaps as the 'PERFECT family' who just seemed to 'have it all'! And of course, when I was young/small, I've never expected that life could eventually (unfortunately/sadly) turned into all of these 'predicaments', problems, stress, etc2. And the saddest thing is how I've now had a major (existential) depression, & passive suicidal ideation everyday, because I honestly feel like I'm just a 'middle-aged' loser/failure that becomes just a 'burden' & disappointment for my 'aging' parents.

I used to always say/comment on this website/forum that: ANYTHING could happen in life! including BAD things/events/circumstances/situation/conditions that is unforeseen, unpredictable, & uncertain!

Sadly & unfortunately, people too often just only 'naively' thinking about all the 'GOOD THINGS' when they've decided to have a child / bring a child into this world. My conclusion is that it's just human's nature (human nature), unfortunately. Our human nature mostly just 'lie/deceive/trick' us -somehow- deeply innate within our DNA biological programming & nature, that most people DON'T WANT to think about all the 'BAD THINGS' in life!

- Optimism bias
- Toxic positivity

These two are sadly deeply ingrained within the human nature. And you can see so MANY examples of this!

But, it should have been so obvious that, in life, there are GOOD and BAD things! So, why people often just only look at the 'GOOD' sides of life, and never / don't want to think about the 'BAD' sides of life (and especially again the *POTENTIAL* probabilities in the FUTURE which is full of uncertainties & unpredictabilities!), is just beyond me, honestly. It's just really sad.

"Ignorance is bliss" >> it's probably one of the true-est quotes that describes the human's condition, sadly/unfortunately. But again, having kids/children is not the same like having a pet (dogs, cats, etc2). You'll have an entirely new *HUMAN BEING* that risks SO MANY THINGS, especially the potential 'BAD' things / problems that I've just explained above! And sadly, usually only when it all already becomes TOO LATE that people (including parents) would perhaps only by then realize all the RISKS & CONSEQUENCES could/can have FATAL outcomes/events in life!


I wish life could be more than this... but, reality is cruel & often disappointing (Thanos' popular/famous quote)...
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I really appreciate your addition. I hope you are doing well <3
Brought into this world by two people's selfish desire, just to suffer, then get told to shut up if I ever complain about that suffering I never chose exacerbated by a world THEY created. Having children is treated like a right instead of one of the biggest responsibilities a human can ever choose to take on. Having children is selfish without even mentioning the amount of children living in orphanages and needing adoption. If someone can and will provide that child a good life while treating them properly, then there's no problem. I'm going to stop there before I share too much of my mind about it. I hate how some people treat having a child or getting a pet like picking up a new toy/hobby for their own enjoyment.
I'm really sorry you had to go through this. I do agree that society often lacks awareness of responsibility.
Hope you're doing better <3
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
15,360
This is brilliantly written and, exactly how I feel.

I have seen it put forward that- would it be acceptible to have children if suicide was more accepted? In that case- I think the morality of it would feel more acceptible.

It's so unrealistic though. Parents simply aren't wired to accept seeing their children die before them. And- even if an individual pair of parents hold a more pro- choice stance, we live in a society that is very anti- choice. That will go out its way to make the more peaceful methods unobtainable and illegal. So (for me,) it doesn't stand as a good argument in this culture.

Plus- there's still the issue of the age to be mature enough to choose suicide. I think many people would set this at 18 at the minimum. If that person has had a difficult life already though- that's already 18 years worth of suffering they've had to endure.

I find it such a double standard too. Parents bring us here with the knowledge we will more than likely experience the pain of their death and likely, many others. So- being born here- we are almost 100% going to be affected by loss, grief, mourning. Yet- woe betide we inflict that on them.

There is also a double standard in the approach to the treatment of ideation itself. That- no matter what that person is going through- it's insisted they should be strong enough to recover from it. That they musn't suicide. Yet- the same person insisting this will also insist that they won't be able to recover from the impact of their suicide. So- we are stronger than them? Really?

To that extent- isn't it in fact fairer to say to would- be parents- you'll need to accept your child suiciding before you- if the life you brought them in to is too painful for them to bear? Because- to insist they can cope with their lives while you can't cope with their suicide is unfair.
 
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Matchaaa

Matchaaa

Please excuse any tone misunderstandings,thank you
Dec 10, 2025
269
This is brilliantly written and, exactly how I feel.

I have seen it put forward that- would it be acceptible to have children if suicide was more accepted? In that case- I think the morality of it would feel more acceptible.

It's so unrealistic though. Parents simply aren't wired to accept seeing their children die before them. And- even if an individual pair of parents hold a more pro- choice stance, we live in a society that is very anti- choice. That will go out its way to make the more peaceful methods unobtainable and illegal. So (for me,) it doesn't stand as a good argument in this culture.

Plus- there's still the issue of the age to be mature enough to choose suicide. I think many people would set this at 18 at the minimum. If that person has had a difficult life already though- that's already 18 years worth of suffering they've had to endure.

I find it such a double standard too. Parents bring us here with the knowledge we will more than likely experience the pain of their death and likely, many others. So- being born here- we are almost 100% going to be affected by loss, grief, mourning. Yet- woe betide we inflict that on them.

There is also a double standard in the approach to the treatment of ideation itself. That- no matter what that person is going through- it's insisted they should be strong enough to recover from it. That they musn't suicide. Yet- the same person insisting this will also insist that they won't be able to recover from the impact of their suicide. So- we are stronger than them? Really?

To that extent- isn't it in fact fairer to say to would- be parents- you'll need to accept your child suiciding before you- if the life you brought them in to is too painful for them to bear? Because- to insist they can cope with their lives while you can't cope with their suicide is unfair.
you've written this really well, your arguments and points are excellent.

Sometimes, when I see people vehemently opposing cases where minors under 18 choose euthanasia, I get the sense that they're implying that pain can be meaningfully tied to age seems overly simplistic.
 
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Macedonian1987

Macedonian1987

Just a sad guy from Macedonia.
Oct 22, 2025
992
Another slightly rambling piece of reflection ^ ^

Having children is not merely a personal choice, but a major life decision that carries significant ethical weight and responsibility. No one can guarantee a life that is always stable or consistently experienced as good. In reality, every life trajectory carries the possibility that, at some point, things may fundamentally fall apart—for instance, a person may find life meaningful and beautiful in the first half, only to later feel that it is no longer worth living due to uncontrollable chronic pain, illness, or existential crises.

This possibility turns procreation into a genuine moral gamble. Parents cannot foresee whether their child will encounter such a rupture, yet it is the child who ultimately bears the consequences. In this sense, non-existence is better than existence. Choosing to have children cautiously—or even choosing not to have them at all—is more responsible than blind optimism. To bring a child into the world is, in effect, to stake a new life—along with its capacity for suffering—on an uncertain outcome. No matter how much effort parents put in, unforeseen events will always occur. This is precisely why careful reflection before choosing to have a child is so important.

Each person's adaptability and disposition are fundamentally different. This is why many people believe that "human potential is limitless" and begin to imagine how wonderful their child's future might be—and that hope is understandable. However, what is often overlooked is the other side of this idea: just because parents perceive an environment as acceptable does not mean the new life will experience it the same way. To have a child is, in effect, to choose their country of birth, their upbringing, and even their social position.

If, after growing up, that child finds themselves unable to adapt to this environment—and has no realistic means of leaving—they may begin to contemplate suicide. Yet at that point, parents and society may respond by saying, "How can you be so irresponsible?" This reveals a moral double standard: when deciding to have a child, one is not expected to foresee the factors that will shape that child's life; yet when that life becomes unbearable, the individual is expected to endure suffering indefinitely and bear the burden of that mismatch.

But if that life had never existed, there would be no suicide to begin with. So What right does society have to condemn someone, without reflecting on the quality and trajectory of the life they were given? In procreation, parents are not held accountable for how their child may come to feel about existence; yet in the case of suicide, the child is expected to bear responsibility for the emotional pain their parents would experience. I understand that parents who lose a child suffer deeply. However, there may be more compassionate, non-judgmental ways to express that pain.

More realistically, it is impossible to ensure that no new lives are ever born. But before choosing to have a child, beyond considering one's own happiness and sense of meaning, could we also give more serious thought to the life we are choosing to bring into the world? After all, that future person will possess the same capacity for suffering as we do.

For example: Is the political environment of this country suitable for raising a child? If not, do I have the means to provide access to a better environment? How will the education system shape them? If the values of this society come into deep conflict with theirs in the future, can I give them the freedom to choose a different path? Is there sufficient financial stability? If the relationship breaks down, would I still be able to provide a stable and loving life?

I believe that if people approached procreation not only from self-interest but also with deeper ethical consideration, many forms of suffering could be reduced. At the same time, for those who are already living under adverse conditions, we must ask whether society provides adequate support systems to alleviate their suffering. And if an individual, after careful reflection, ultimately decides to end their life, should we respect their autonomy and allow the process to be peaceful and dignified—rather than forcing them to endure further pain even in their final moments?

After all, many methods of suicide are extremely painful, and we know that enduring such pain is deeply frightening.
My life was like yours. The first half was wonderful. I was a healthy person who enjoyed hiking in nature (I was still alone due to my autism even back then, but that didn't bothered me at all). Then in the second half of my life, my health both physical and psychological went down the drain. I am 39 now but ever since I was 16 years old i have felt suicidal.
I'm really sorry you got to experience such life too. Live starting good, then turning into something really ugly and filled with suffering.

You are also right about society having no right to meddle in our decisions to end or continue our lives? I guess the capitalistic meat grinder needs its slaves. Society does not really care about us as human beings if we die of suicide, no. They only care about the potential of us earning $$$ for them by breaking our backs.
 
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