I was happy for the trans girl who managed to kill herself recently

[dust-in-the-wind]

Willpower or incalculable despair? These are not the same. Conviction is principled, suicide is not (unless you're an informant ingesting cyanuret).

I believe utter hopelessness to be the cause of all suicides.

 

[quins]

I do think that the majority of people take their own lives due to personal anguish, depression, grief, mental illness, what have you, and that principled suicides are more rare. I also think there can be crossover between the two, that one does not inherently exclude the other. You're probably right that each of us is projecting their own experience onto what could be considered common - I believe more die for principles because I tried to die (and will eventually die) for principles. Your perception of the general consensus is affected by your own experience. I think it's unavoidable.

What you wrote about Mishima was just lovely and I agree to an extent. On the surface, one could argue his entire philosophy was antiquated and that his spirit belonged to a different, grander, more legendary time. His manner of death and the ideals therein belong to the pages of the heroic epics he revered. He orchestrated it to be that way. But the fact is that he died in 1970 very much a modern man relatively speaking. Actually, I'm curious about your perception of his death. The very notion of conviction is very interesting to me. How can someone execute a suicide that could, in your view, be considered not a destruction of the self but an immortalising rebirth? Do they have to enact a coup, as he did, or have some kind of manifesto? Does it have to be political? I'm also thinking about those Buddhist monks who undergo self-mummification.

I'm enjoying this back and forth, thanks for sharing your views~

I feel that in the case of many other suicides from the "famed and ethereal" there is some faith-based recognition that "what is true and good will come to light in time, like gold washed down by a silver stream." Or at least I believe that might serve as an impetus, the aboriginal content of "conviction" itself is far more tenuous for me to grasp. You mentioned a "coup" or "manifesto writing", but I think any such recognition is reducible, in part, to how they perceive their own legacy, and the act of suicide itself abstracted into a sign unto itself. Mishima was "Japanese, but not Japanese", something of a "pillar" in which all knowledge rises up from a Platonic fog and establishes itself in a "pure realm of thought-association" (this was put more elegantly by Walter Benjamin). Or to put it more bluntly, they (men such as Mishima, all great men really) laid claim to an idealization of man and became inextricably bound up by it, as if they felt an urgency in what they perceived as decadence and wanted nothing more than to commit to something purer, to submit to "old world mores" and to permanently ingratiate themselves in the minds of "sensitive young men." A "universalizing" impulse if you will.

I think Buddhism is quite different, since those instances you speak of arise from an optimistic worldview, whereas for the cases abovementioned it is only through a pessimism of the cultural world which grants man an internal sense of decree that suicide can be conceived. The latter is, by its nature, committing something "radical", whereas the former is fortified through the manacles of tradition.

 

[happysunnydayy]

Peopel like that are disgusting. Fucking vile shit heads.

must be incels again
Why would you choose a painful method like this? Surely takes a lot of guts to drown. Why not just jump from a building? No drowning. Instant death.

 

[kagebunshin]

I feel that in the case of many other suicides from the "famed and ethereal" there is some faith-based recognition that "what is true and good will come to light in time, like gold washed down by a silver stream." Or at least I believe that might serve as an impetus, the aboriginal content of "conviction" itself is far more tenuous for me to grasp. You mentioned a "coup" or "manifesto writing", but I think any such recognition is reducible, in part, to how they perceive their own legacy, and the act of suicide itself abstracted into a sign unto itself. Mishima was "Japanese, but not Japanese", something of a "pillar" in which all knowledge rises up from a Platonic fog and establishes itself in a "pure realm of thought-association" (this was put more elegantly by Walter Benjamin). Or to put it more bluntly, they (men such as Mishima, all great men really) laid claim to an idealization of man and became inextricably bound up by it, as if they felt an urgency in what they perceived as decadence and wanted nothing more than to commit to something purer, to submit to "old world mores" and to permanently ingratiate themselves in the minds of "sensitive young men." A "universalizing" impulse if you will.

I think Buddhism is quite different, since those instances you speak of arise from an optimistic worldview, whereas for the cases abovementioned it is only through a pessimism of the cultural world which grants man an internal sense of decree that suicide can be conceived. The latter is, by its nature, committing something "radical", whereas the former is fortified through the manacles of tradition.

I am a fellow "great-manist", or once believed that I had the power to break through obstacles, and that I was made not of flesh but bronze. I'm thirty so not as old as you, and a woman, but I know something of the anguish when that veil lifts and reveals a vulgar and stolid truth. Men like Mishima are sentiment made manifest to demonstrate to us simultaneously the extent of our potential and depth of limitation. Like all great men, he is everything we can and cannot be.

A coup is one matter, but I agree that a manifesto is reductive to the act of suicide (unless it is purely politically motivated). Anything that a suicidial person does to perpetuate their presence in this world after death denigrates the purity of the suicide act itself.

I think that the romance and heroism of the great man is something that comes from within. Some historical moments coalesce into just the right circumstances for the great man to enact and realise his potential, and so Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Dostoevsky and Mishima come to comprise the pantheon. But in the majority of cases, the great man is trapped within his own heart, the world gives him no outlet to his energies, and so he withers and dies under his own potency like a daisy before a sun that never sets. He embodies the undying youth of man which does not go gentle.

In these cases, conviction and desperation comprise a delicate blend. The great man is ruined by his futility yet his will is strong. His potential rages against the dying light whilst at the same time drives him into it for glory, for ruin, for vengeance. Sorry, now I'm rambling. I wrangle with these topics time and again to harden my own heart.

 

[quins]

I am a fellow "great-manist", or once believed that I had the power to break through obstacles, and that I was made not of flesh but bronze. I'm thirty so not as old as you, and a woman, but I know something of the anguish when that veil lifts and reveals a vulgar and stolid truth. Men like Mishima are sentiment made manifest to demonstrate to us simultaneously the extent of our potential and depth of limitation. Like all great men, he is everything we can and cannot be.

A coup is one matter, but I agree that a manifesto is reductive to the act of suicide (unless it is purely politically motivated). Anything that a suicidial person does to perpetuate their presence in this world after death denigrates the purity of the suicide act itself.

I think that the romance and heroism of the great man is something that comes from within. Some historical moments coalesce into just the right circumstances for the great man to enact and realise his potential, and so Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Dostoevsky and Mishima come to comprise the pantheon. But in the majority of cases, the great man is trapped within his own heart, the world gives him no outlet to his energies, and so he withers and dies under his own potency like a daisy before a sun that never sets. He embodies the undying youth of man which does not go gentle.

In these cases, conviction and desperation comprise a delicate blend. The great man is ruined by his futility yet his will is strong. His potential rages against the dying light whilst at the same time drives him into it for glory, for ruin, for vengeance. Sorry, now I'm rambling. I wrangle with these topics time and again to harden my own heart.

I would argue that suicide can never be a "pure act", insofar as it is never sui generis. It always involves some transgression of a norm, whether that be moral or cultural, and so requires a "leap" into the fray of the unknowable, since a moral agent cannot act independently of that moral/cultural context.

I agree with what you have said here. "The will is strong, but the flesh retards." A great tragedy of our time.

 

[yxmux]

Tht ws wht 1 of thr finl commnts on twittr sd b4 thy jumpd

Spoiler: Twittr a-hles -- TW - trnsphobc h8

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& othr ppl vistd tht suicde area wth printd-off mmes mockng th/ persn tht thy lft thre

Tht = ppl mockng deth of a *chld*

i hope they realize they're making themselves vulnerable here by posting on twitter/x

i find it bizarre how people willingly ruin their reputation over trans people, as if they're magically psychologically manipulated beyond any ounce of agency to post the most unambiguously hateful content they can imagine. it creates the impression that you're a helpless idiot who's only useful for relaying factory-produced insults disguised as sharp wit with intelligent weight. there's no point in being proud of being reducible to highly irritating noise unless that's all you seem to be good for

 

[Forever Sleep]

Willpower or incalculable despair? These are not the same. Conviction is principled, suicide is not (unless you're an informant ingesting cyanuret).

That's an interesting view- that a suicide isn't done with a conviction of principles. I'd argue that slightly. Suicide represents a conviction not to comply any longer with the world in which we find ourselves.

Maybe you could argue we ought to live on in order to fight for things to be better. Perhaps we have already tried though. Tried to change what troubles us. Maybe even to change ourselves to better fit in with this world. If neither is budging though and likely won't change for the better in our lifetime- what or who are we in fact fighting for? Obviously not us anymore.

Would you have the same conviction to play a game you knew was rigged from the start or, would your conviction in fact become: 'You can shove it'. I'm not willing to participate in this anymore?

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here. I think it's also very possible for a person to be driven to despair to such an extent that they have no more fight left.

As for the suicide itself- I think it is both tragic and something those who also wish to end their lives might admire. The circumstances that led her to take her own life are tragic. I expect they are for most people. But then, I also think that anyone who wants to take their own life may well admire those who have the guts to go through with it. Plus, we can feel a sense of relief for them, that they escaped their suffering.

 

[catfriend]

I don't know, this is one I can't feel good about. Charlotte (the girl's name) was a child. She spent a lot of time in online gaming spaces, and I can only imagine that subjected her to a lot of transphobia. Then after her death she was endlessly mocked by the same chuds and even had her twitter account hacked. Everything about it is really sad to me.

it is so fucking sad. her poor family... losing a child so young, in that manner, and then having her death made into a joke. i hope they're getting all the support they need.

i am yet again disappointed by humanity.

no one should be happy about a child killing themselves.

charlotte deserved better.

 

[davidtorez]

it is so fucking sad. her poor family... losing a child so young, in that manner, and then having her death made into a joke. i hope they're getting all the support they need.

i am yet again disappointed by humanity.

no one should be happy about a child killing themselves.

charlotte deserved better

agree with this. Those shit heads who posted on twitter are the reason people like Charlotte end up doing what she did! I really don't get what another person's gender is to anyone else! Live and let live ! How old was she if I may ask ?

 

[joaosembraco12]

agree with this. Those shit heads who posted on twitter are the reason people like Charlotte end up doing what she did! I really don't get what another person's gender is to anyone else! Live and let live ! How old was she if I may ask ?

She was 17 years old

 

[davidtorez]

She was 17 years old

Very sad

 

[wham311]

Do not for the life of me understand the hatred for trans people.

And people are fucking evil.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

No I'm not happy for her, she didn't came to that conclusion on her own, she was forced to take her life because of the circumstances and because of some evil terminally online pricks, she was seeing no other choice, I only feel anger, anger that overrides every emotion. Hope every single one of them dies a horrible death , alone, tormented and in pain , having lived an unfulfilling life with nobody to comfort them.

 

[joaosembraco12]

No I'm not happy for her, she didn't came to that conclusion on her own, she was forced to take her life because of the circumstances and because of some evil terminally online pricks, she was seeing no other choice, I only feel anger, anger that overrides every emotion. Hope every single one of them dies a horrible death , alone, tormented and in pain , having lived an unfulfilling life with nobody to comfort them.

Most of those who are mocking her with wojaks are sad people. I'm from the same background, I've frequented Chans, I know exactly who these people are, they're frustrated and unsuccessful people. I know the world isn't fair, I don't fall for this "Karma" bullshit and I don't believe in punishment after death neither. But, in this case, the Kosmos has given us justice in life, fatties, nerds, virgins who spend all day at the computer screen and need to mock a child so they don't remember their own existence and start crying. I'm also incel, fat and neet, I'm exactly the kind of person I'm criticizing, I hate my existence, I know how they suffer.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

Most of those who are mocking her with wojaks are sad people. I'm from the same background, I've frequented Chans, I know exactly who these people are, they're frustrated and unsuccessful people. I know the world isn't fair, I don't fall for this "Karma" bullshit and I don't believe in punishment after death neither. But, in this case, the Kosmos has given us justice in life, fatties, nerds, virgins who spend all day at the computer screen and need to mock a child so they don't remember their own existence and start crying. I'm also incel, fat and neet, I'm exactly the kind of person I'm criticizing, I hate my existence, I know how they suffer.

But you didn't go and send these messages , did you? And also you realise that the person you talked about is also a victim of the Cosmos , right?

 

[joaosembraco12]

But you didn't go and send these messages , did you?

Of course not! I'm not a monster!

But you didn't go and send these messages , did you? And also you realise that the person you talked about is also a victim of the Cosmos , right?

It was just a poetic way of saying that those who are mocking her death are also sad people. I don't believe in these esoteric things.

 

[Squiggles3]

I'm glad she's in a better place because it isn't going to get any better. With transphobia it's actually rarely hatred. A lot of people didn't hate gay people but still supported them being castrated or viewed them as inherently podophiles or mocked them online with slurs because it was "edgy" and "funny". Most transphobia comes from a population of people who are apathetic and would watch you suffer so long as it does not inconvenience them, from people who care enough to have opinions but not enough to care about the consequences or be informed and accurate, from people who are scared or uncomfortable and will rather a group of peoples healthcare be held to a different standard than everyone else's or outright avoided at all costs, from people who's are so confident in their beliefs and "facts" that they can't be bothered to actually research or provide any proof. The people who hate trans people are few but. I'm glad she escaped a world where at best its apathy and misinformation and at worst its downright cruelty and hate. I'm jealous I don't have the courage to follow through with ctb no matter how much I try.