How comes society accepts that poor people are punished way more strictly than rich people if they do something wrong?

[noname223]

If someone on welfare makes a mistake hell breaks lose for him or her. There is massive societal stigmatization. A lot of pressure. Countless media reports about alleged "welfare queens". It is easier to bully and kick people at the bottom of society I guess...

On the other hand rich, people are considered smart when they evade taxes. There are even so many legal loopholes when it comes to taxes for billionaires and companies. They don't have to abide by these rules. If they commit a crime they can pay a fine or their Ivy league educated lawyers can save their asses. They have a strong lobby that represents them.

Why aren't there more riots against that? I think media plays a role. The US media system distracts the average American and makes him believe the people who give massive tax cuts to the rich were actually fighting for the average Joe and Jane. It is all perverted.

 

[itsgone2]

If someone on welfare makes a mistake hell breaks lose for him or her. There is massive societal stigmatization. A lot of pressure. Countless media reports about alleged "welfare queens". It is easier to bully and kick people at the bottom of society I guess...

On the other hand rich, people are considered smart when they evade taxes. There are even so many legal loopholes when it comes to taxes for billionaires and companies. They don't have to abide by these rules. If they commit a crime they can pay a fine or their Ivy league educated lawyers can save their asses. They have a strong lobby that represents them.

Why aren't there more riots against that? I think media plays a role. The US media system distracts the average American and makes him believe the people who give massive tax cuts to the rich were actually fighting for the average Joe and Jane. It is all perverted.

I'm in a weird spot. For most of my life I've been somewhere in the middle. Not poor but certainly don't have the money that the people around me do. And now my job is going to end since my company has been acquired.
So just my opinion, but the taxes part bothers me less than job destruction does. They do pay taxes, just not enough and yes some ways around it.
But what do low and middle class want? I think we'd rather have meaningful work than just be given everything. But they constantly downsize, or post mergers they get rid of any redundant positions. Out outsource to cheaper foreign labor, who are basically being exploited.
To me this is the true sin of the rich. And there are so many levels to it.
But I agree on the basic thought: they are only looking out for themselves, with zero regard for fellow man.

 

[Dejected 55]

The con is simple... Rich people convince you that you can be just like them, so you don't want to see them as the enemy... but the goal. They trick you into "free the rich" with the tease that you can gain entry to the club and partake too... but that very rarely is ever true.

There's a graphic out there somewhere of a rich guy, a middle class guy, and a poor guy. There's a plate of cookies in front of the middle class guy and the rich gay says "Hey, he's taking your cookies!" as he points to the poor guy and takes cookies from the middle class guy. The poor guy is "caught" eating a crumb that fell off the plate of the middle class guy.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Who is it that are telling us to hate those claiming 'undue' welfair? Those 'milking the system'? The ones who are in power- the rich. Including the criminal rich. They have the money and power to control the narrative.

I think we probably do despise the corrupt and rich. In terms of public opinion, I'm not sure we do always admire them. But legally, they have the money to wiggle out of things presumably.

 

[Dejected 55]

Like... I'm all for farmers, I like to eat food and all... but farmers get a LOT of subsidies in the USA... That's welfare you know. But if you are try and talk about it like it is, you get yelled at. They will lose their fucking mind over feeding kids lunch for free in schools or wanting food stamps to feed the family... "why don't you work and pay your own way?" they will declare... Okay, so hey... "why don't the farmers be better farmers so everyone in the country doesn't have to pay their bills for them?"

And oil companies... literally the WORST way to give money to anyone ever... Oil companies, at or near the top of the wealthiest companies in the world, like all the damn time... get government subsidies... What the actual fuck for? I'm for subsidies to investigate new technologies, fuels, cures for disease, etc... you have to spend money to develop those things and it's not always profitable at first... but THE most profitable companies getting money they don't even arguably come close to needing? Why the hell aren't people freaking out about that? If everyone on welfare scammed welfare to the maximum amount, they couldn't but a dent in what oil companies get.

And... the one thing that does get talked about sometimes... while I am in favor of subsidizing new research... what pisses me off is... we the people pay taxes that the government spend subsidizing research... that the company gain a patent and makes millions or billions off the thing they develop that they needed the subsidized money to be able to do... The government, and then us the people need to see kickback from any profitable venture that a company makes due to subsidies.

Remember how all those rich people like to say they get paid big bucks because they risk their own money? So... when you risk subsidized money, instead of your own, you need to think about that the same way and pay us back with interest on those discoveries!

 

[Hvergelmir]

On the other hand rich, people are considered smart when they evade taxes.

I don't think this is true. There is some legitimate tax planning, but there's also a lot of political work to reduce it, and harsh sentences for tax fraud. People are put in prison for those things. I've not seen upper class tax evasion glorified.

Personally I believe that the tax systems need to be simplified, to avoid loopholes.

So... when you risk subsidized money, instead of your own, you need to think about that the same way and pay us back with interest on those discoveries!

Conditional state-backed loans as an alternative to subsidies? That's actually not a bad idea.

 

[noname223]

I don't think this is true. There is some legitimate tax planning, but there's also a lot of political work to reduce it, and harsh sentences for tax fraud. People are put in prison for those things. I've not seen upper class tax evasion glorified.

Personally I believe that the tax systems need to be simplified, to avoid loopholes.

Conditional state-backed loans as an alternative to subsidies? That's actually not a bad idea.

Only because some tax evasions schemes are legal, I would not consider them legitimate. For example, how big tech companies don't pay their fair share in the EU. Relatively speaking many rich people pay a smaller percentage of their income as taxes (effective tax rate) than a middle class person in the US.

Most Of Billionaires’ $7.6 Trillion Has Never Been Taxed - Americans For Tax Fairness

Total Billionaire Wealth Is Up 160% Since First Trump Tax Law; Proposed New Levy Would Finally Tax Unrealized Gains of the Wealthiest American billionaires reached a record breaking $7.6 trillion of personal wealth as of Labor Day 2025, up $4.7 trillion (or 160%) in the less than eight years...

americansfortaxfairness.org

America's richest 400 families now pay a lower tax rate than the middle class

For the first time in a century, the ultra-wealthy contribute a smaller share of their income than most other Americans

www.cbsnews.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/report-one-in-four-millionaires-pays-less-in-taxes-than-the-middle-class/2011/10/12/gIQAh8XNfL_story.html

 

[Hvergelmir]

Only because some tax evasions schemes are legal, I would not consider them legitimate.

I didn't question the existence of tax schemes, but the glorification of them. I don't think tax evaders are celebrated as smart.
Some rich people are widely admired, but not because of their ability to avoid taxes.

Different political ideologies likes to tax things differently. The right tend to want to tax the operation of companies lighter to encourage that, and create prosperity - jobs, goods, technological breakthroughs, etc.
The left tend to want to create prosperity by boosting consumer purchasing power (creating demand), and state projects, directly working towards both creation and distribution of prosperity.

Both sides tend to create openings for parasites, leeching off society. Oligarchs and parasites, are present in all societies. I think there's widespread agreement that this is a problem. I know that EU is continuously working on the problem.
I read that the U.S. democrats wanting to change taxation for corporations and capital gains. The republicans seem more worried about underground operations and companies moving operations abroad (leaving their tax jurisdiction).

Heavy handed, naive remedies tend to fail miserably. Regardless of fairness or morality, corporations and oligarchs are an integral part of society. They must not just be removed, but replaced with something better. Not just something fair and just, but something efficient and productive, than can maintain and grow prosperity.

 

[noname223]

I didn't question the existence of tax schemes, but the glorification of them. I don't think tax evaders are celebrated as smart.
Some rich people are widely admired, but not because of their ability to avoid taxes.

Different political ideologies likes to tax things differently. The right tend to want to tax the operation of companies lighter to encourage that, and create prosperity - jobs, goods, technological breakthroughs, etc.
The left tend to want to create prosperity by boosting consumer purchasing power (creating demand), and state projects, directly working towards both creation and distribution of prosperity.

Both sides tend to create openings for parasites, leeching off society. Oligarchs and parasites, are present in all societies. I think there's widespread agreement that this is a problem. I know that EU is continuously working on the problem.
I read that the U.S. democrats wanting to change taxation for corporations and capital gains. The republicans seem more worried about underground operations and companies moving operations abroad (leaving their tax jurisdiction).

Heavy handed, naive remedies tend to fail miserably. Regardless of fairness or morality, corporations and oligarchs are an integral part of society. They must not just be removed, but replaced with something better. Not just something fair and just, but something efficient and productive, than can maintain and grow prosperity.

With this framing it sounds like people at the bottom (who are leeching according to you) were a similar Big problem than some oligarchs that have more wealth than the bottom half of the American Society. I think in the US context the narrative of welfare queens is farly exaggerated. (https://stories.butler.edu/butler-p...hs-of-the-welfare-queen/?utm_sourcePerplexity) Societies are way healthier with strong social welfare nets than with extreme inequality. Look at Scandinavia. The economic inequality and austerity policies led to the rise of populists in the US and Europe. (In my opinion.) Trump is admired for being a business Men. Even though, it is widely known He had connections to organized crime during his time in New York. He also was found guilty of tax evasion and a couple of other crimes are documented.

Legal News > Your source for information behind the law

Legal News operates nine newspapers to provide up to date legal news and up to the hour Public Notices for Michigan Lawyers.

www.legalnews.com

And Then He was re-elected as president. Why are Americans falling for such a conman? An actual welfare queen just on the opposite side of the spectrum. They consider him smart and crafty for Such a behavior. I don't See stigmatization for Such a behavior in Trump's case. Do people even care about it? The people prefer to be angry at people at the bottom because they are an easier target for them.

Edit: In politics I would never call a certain group of people "parasites". Especially, if this group is marginalized and beaten down on. That's dehumanizing. It reminds me of the fact that Israeli politicians call Palestinians "human animals". Such a rhetoric is very dangerous. In general, there is a widespread hatred in the US against poor people. Most people think it was their own fault for being in a constant misery. That's far from the truth. Poor people are often scapegoated for societal ills. Which is ironic because they actually don't have a strong lobby (especially in the US) and no actual power. In contrast to the arms lobby, foreign countries with their respective interests, billionaires who rig the system in their own favor. Rich people use the narrative of welfare queens at the bottom of society to distract the public of who is really pullling the strings...

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

Because people only parrot what they read in books or on the internet, they won't move a finger because they have no experience with what they read, so it's something that they can't comprehend or understand, they only acknowledge. This is why nothing gets done in general.

 

[Liseli]

Because in a way it has always been the rich vs the poor. Keep the people devided and its easier to bully the bottom

 

[Hvergelmir]

With this framing it sounds like people at the bottom (who are leeching according to you) were a similar Big problem than some oligarchs

I don't know how you made that interpretation.
I'm talking about oligarchs of the U.S, but also Russia, China, and other places. Different systems leaves room for different kinds of exploitation.

They consider him smart and crafty for Such a behavior. I don't See stigmatization for Such a behavior in Trump's case. Do people even care about it? The people prefer to be angry at people at the bottom because they are an easier target for them.

Your framing make it sound like the world is populated by anarcho-capitalist propagandists, which I don't think is true. Trump is receiving more criticism and hate than any other modern leader I've seen. He is not universally celebrated as a smart and crafty business genius.
He's been impeached, there have been attempts to take his life, and I don't think he'll win the next election.
The problems you're presenting are widely acknowledged. People do care, and people are angry. Moreso on the left, but also on the right.

The anger towards parts of the lower/middle class, is due to separate issues; real and imagined.

 

[noname223]

I don't know how you made that interpretation.
I'm talking about oligarchs of the U.S, but also Russia, China, and other places. Different systems leaves room for different kinds of exploitation.

Your framing make it sound like the world is populated by anarcho-capitalist propagandists, which I don't think is true. Trump is receiving more criticism and hate than any other modern leader I've seen. He is not universally celebrated as a smart and crafty business genius.
He's been impeached, there have been attempts to take his life, and I don't think he'll win the next election.
The problems you're presenting are widely acknowledged. People do care, and people are angry. Moreso on the left, but also on the right.

The anger towards parts of the lower/middle class, is due to separate issues; real and imagined.

There is some truth that not all people admire Trump for being an allegedly smart business man. But its part of his public image otherwise his criminal record with tax evasion and connections to organized crime would actually stick. Not a few people in the US think in such a way about him though.

There is a partisan war about him. But his supporters glorify him. US voters prior to the election thought he would have better economic policies and that he would be more educated on it than Kamala. The whole thing is paradox because when the voters were asked which economic policies they prefer without knowing from which side they come, more people alligned with Harris' policies.

He wasn't impeached for his libertarian economic policies the same goes for his attempted murder. It had nothing to do with his dehumanizing policies against the most vulnerable groups of the US society.

The problems you're presenting are widely acknowledged. People do care, and people are angry. Moreso on the left, but also on the right.

There is not much done for helping poor people by the current US administration besides some rhetoric. The inequality skyrockets and there is a redistribution of wealth towards the rich. The actions by some churches or NGOs are a little bit of cosmetics. The gap is widening. Trump pretends to fight for the average American. But the opposite is the case. He plays divide and conquer when he scapegoats homeless people and his supporters have an easy target where they can let their anger out. Compared to Europe the US is a paradise for libertarian and anarcho capitalists. Where I live libertarians say we have to become more like Argentina and the US...and maybe exactly that will happen...The US is often a place where trends that take place later in Europe play out earlier.

 

[Dejected 55]

There are also the more subversive penalties for poor people over rich.

This gets talked about in civics and sociology topics I think... Parking fines.

Make a parking fine $20. Some people can't afford that. Make it $50. A lot of people can't afford that. There is a tipping point where the fine for the violation becomes so great that a poor person can be broken by the fine, BUT a rich person just sees it as a nuisance fee... or rather a parking fee. So the poor person is punished $100 for parking 5 minutes too long in a space, while the rich person views the $100 as a permission-to-park-longer fee that costs him little for the convenience to stay there as long as he wants.

It not only punishes the poor disproportionately to the rich, but it incentivizes wealthy people to not consider lawfulness as significant when, for a small fee (to them), they can ignore the law.

There are other examples... some have proposed percentage fines where your fine is calculated relative to your earnings or wealth or something. That would be tricky and probably not get enough support because the middle-class would get hit harder by this as well.

But the strict fine structure doesn't disincentivize in the way it is intended, because honest people who are off just a little in timing are punished harshly if they are poor, while a rich person can purposefully skirt the law easily.

 

[Hvergelmir]

There are other examples... some have proposed percentage fines where your fine is calculated relative to your earnings or wealth or something.

While not feasible for private parking tickets, this system is implemented for many minor crimes in my country.
If the police catches you speeding, the fine will most likely be relative to your income.

I don't know if that's unique to my country, or how it works in for example the U.S.

The underlying cause however, is that someone with more resources have higher resilience to all kinds of things. While there are progressive tax rates during good times, there's no such thing as progressive burden during tough times.
(Greece did take from the rich during their economic crisis, and Russian oligarchs are getting assets seized abroad, but it's rare.)

 

[Dejected 55]

While not feasible for private parking tickets, this system is implemented for many minor crimes in my country.
If the police catches you speeding, the fine will most likely be relative to your income.

I don't know if that's unique to my country, or how it works in for example the U.S.

The underlying cause however, is that someone with more resources have higher resilience to all kinds of things. While there are progressive tax rates during good times, there's no such thing as progressive burden during tough times.
(Greece did take from the rich during their economic crisis, and Russian oligarchs are getting assets seized abroad, but it's rare.)

In the US, wealth and resources are a factor when it comes to bond for being let out on bail while awaiting trial to disincentivize you from disappearing and not showing up to trial. It's also a factor in punitive judgments too, where if you are wealthy you are more likely to be fined higher in a judgement... but for anything that has "set" fines, those are just what they are, per incident, possibly higher for repeat offenders.

In many ways, our system in the US is essentially designed to do what it does... i.e. it isn't a bug but a feature. We have a lot of illusion of one thing while functionally being a different intended thing. IF they wanted to truly punish speeding and parking violations, for instance, they would have to think about how they enforce it completely differently because it just isn't a deterrent for people who can afford the fines, while it can be world-shattering for others... and neither case is relative to the crime being committed.

Someone once said that the way we have fines for these types of minor crimes it is less about trying to stamp it out and more about determining what the price for allowing it should be. Similar to the old joke where a guy asks a girl if she will sleep with him for $100, she says no... he says $1000, she says "what kind of a girl do you think I am?" and he replies, we've already established that, now we are just haggling over price.