Venting Honestly? Fuck it. Why shouldn't I give back the energy hateful people give to me?

[phantomisgone]

I've been trying to be so kind and nice to people in this world. So many times of my life I've been told to turn the other cheek, be the bigger person, let it go. It doesn't help any of my situations. People will continue to abuse. People will continue to be selfish. People will continue to not care about others. So why should I continue to care about other people?

"You will repeat the cycle of abuse." At this point... so what? I, myself, am tired of being abused.

Now I'm not saying that I'm going to hurt innocent people. I'm not about that at all. I'm just saying that at this point, people who continue to do me wrong, after I told them to stop it, will get the same equal treatment. I don't care anymore. I've cared for too long.

Tired of being mistreated and the abusers get to walk, while I have to sit in therapy for what they did to me.

 

[Hevn]

That's right.
There's no need to forgive insults or let go of the harm done to you.

I've been trying to be so kind and nice to people in this world. So many times of my life I've been told to turn the other cheek, be the bigger person, let it go.

They are definitely wrong.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

People often insert phrases like "be the bigger person" and "don't repeat the cycle" into conversations where they don't belong. Not laying down and taking abuse is not perpetuating a cycle. Defending yourself is not stooping to their level.

The line to walk can be thin, but never let them tell you that you must sacrifice your autonomy to heal.

 

[Valky]

Agreeing with the other responses "be the bigger person" is manipulation.
Taking abuse from someone else is not kindness, it is disrespecting yourself.

In my experience what usually lacks are boundaries, I'd advice you to work on those.

It is hard to have a soft heart in such a harsh world but to me it is worth it for those kind hearted souls I meet along the way, even if it means having to endure and stand my ground towards assholes.
Best of luck, don't let this world break you <3

 

[Dejected 55]

Defending yourself is one thing... removing bad people from your life is another thing... But "giving back" the same energy or seeking revenge or hurting others because they hurt you... it's a path that will never help you. Whatever they do/did to hurt you will still hurt AND you will add the guilt of knowing you are capable of hurting others on top of it.

Seeking revenge just adds to your hurt with new pain. It doesn't remove the old pain at all. It's not about being the "better person" for their benefit... it's about doing it and being true to yourself for YOUR benefit.

 

[Hevn]

@Dejected 55

I definitely disagree with you.
If non-humans ruined your life, it is your duty to take revenge.
By forgiving non-humans, or not taking revenge on them, you give them confirmation of impunity and rightwards.

It won't get better with time in any case.
It only gets worse and worse because couldn't take revenge on the non-humans.

Most likely, you and I have different experiences. And I'm not forcing it to you. Just my opinion and repeated experience.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

@Dejected 55

I definitely disagree with you.
If non-humans ruined your life, it is your duty to take revenge.
By forgiving non-humans, or not taking revenge on them, you give them confirmation of impunity and rightwards.

It won't get better with time in any case.
It only gets worse and worse because couldn't take revenge on the non-humans.

Most likely, you and I have different experiences. And I'm not forcing it to you. Just my opinion and repeated experience.

I don't personally understand your need to dehumanize harmful people in an attempt to validate your mistreatment. There's no shame in calling humans... humans. Humans suck most of the time, honestly.

Your message kind of reminds me of those people who say "Well if I don't beat my child, then they'll think they can get away with anything!"

Revenge or pain isn't how you show someone you aren't to be messed with, there are a million better ways to do that:

By forgiving non-humans not setting boundaries with people
or not taking revenge on them and not judging whether they are worth your forgiveness,
you give them confirmation of impunity and rightwards.

It won't get better with time in any case.
It only gets worse and worse because couldn't take revenge on the non-humans you are not putting your foot down around harmful people in your life.

I intend to take a sort of "revenge" on one of my abusers, but for me the difference is that the revenge serves multiple purposes.

It will help expose him to future/current victims of him, it will help get his enablers to stop trying to convince me to like him again, and it will in fact show him not to mess with me—but as I said, this is not the only course of action that achieves this for most people.

 

[phantomisgone]

Revenge or pain isn't how you show someone you aren't to be messed with, there are a million better ways to do that:

What are some ways to where one can do that if you can share?

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

What are some ways to where one can do that if you can share?

Well, personally I think people hard mistake boundaries and matching energy in a nondestructive way for revenge when it's not really at all.

It isn't always accessible to do some of these things, but the best way to show people that you're not a doormat is to stop turning the other cheek whenever they try shit with you.

If they do shit in public, make sure to call it out verbally too. Make it uncomfortable, make sure they know that you aren't afraid to call out bad treatment even if you're in a place where it could make a scene.

If they try to manipulate you to be pulled back into a fight or argument, don't take the bait.

If you have the option, walk away from them and tell them that if communication isn't their goal, you won't sit and beg. If they try to get you to engage even after you set your boundary, then just ignore their existence. Silent treatment can be a very important tool for those with emotionally immature parents/partners/family, if it isn't possible to just cut contact altogether.

If they try to ask you to forgive their past actions ("water under the bridge"), then you tell them you will once they take responsibility for them. Once they themselves start working on themselves and get to a point where they will never hurt anyone again (likelihood is that they never will, so you have created a "forgiveness loophole"). Or outright just say "I'm not required to forgive you because you are not obligated to my forgiveness."

If the abuse is physical, things get tricky. Literally fighting back can only go so far before it can actually get you hurt worse. Unfortunately, in some inescapable situations that don't involve physical abuse, this can still complicate things. Sometimes you have to wait into you're in a safe place to start working on stronger boundaries, but you should never get rid of all your boundaries to appease an abuser.

These are just a few examples of things I've had to use in some (temporarily) inescapable abuse situations. Again, if you have the option, cutting this person off is best. Don't take any shit, and don't ignore any slights against you that people may try. Being selective with the people in your life is better than having a lot of shitty family/friends/etc.

If you want to know more about my revenge situation, feel free to ask.

 

[Hevn]

I don't personally understand your need to dehumanize harmful people in an attempt to validate your mistreatment.

Specifically, in my last post I was not talking about mistreatment. I'm talking about the monsters, scums who destroy people's lives. who defame, destroy what is most precious to a person.᠌᠌᠌᠌᠌ ᠌ about those who destroy people's souls and desecrate bodies. And other terrible things.
I can't call these non-humans people.

And as the experience of my difficult, unhappy life has shown — non-humans are often born evil, evil has social groups and even ethnic groups.

But, you haven't encountered this. That's why you still think you can forgive monsters if they look like people.

not setting boundaries with people

Are you kidding? You understand that there are scums who will deliberately violate your boundaries. Moreover, in every sense of this meaning. Physical boundaries, body boundaries, mental boundaries.᠌ ᠌ this happened to me on June 21st this year.
My life has been ruined once before, and I have been caused badly pain, hell, and horror many times. But what happened on June 21st — is the end. In many ways it's worse than the when my life was already ruined once.

And you say such naive things as:

not setting boundaries with people

If they try to get you to engage even after you set your boundary, then just ignore their existence. Silent treatment can be a very important tool for those with emotionally immature parents/partners/family, if it isn't possible to just cut contact altogether.

Our experiences vary greatly. And I strongly advise you not to adhere to such naive views. Otherwise, you will be badly injured by monsters. In any case, it's up to you to decide.

 

[TheFalseWidow]

How was your life ruined on June 21st?

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

And as the experience of my difficult, unhappy life has shown — non-humans are often born evil, evil has social groups and even ethnic groups.

Oh? ETHNIC groups, you say. Do tell me what entire ethnicities are evil! Are you looking to cleanse them, perhaps?

But, you haven't encountered this. That's why you still think you can forgive monsters if they look like people.

Our experiences vary greatly. And I strongly advise you not to adhere to such naive views. Otherwise, you will be badly injured by monsters. In any case, it's up to you to decide.

I'm literally a medically recognized narcissist and these messages are still the most grandiose shit I've ever seen.

I'm a childhood sex trafficking victim. I have possibly known more monsters than you ever have, and they were all human. That is the horror of it. Sit down, Hitler-wannane, I think there's a better forum for you.

 

[phantomisgone]

How was your life ruined on June 21st?

What do you mean?

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

What do you mean?

They meant to reply to Hevn:

this happened to me on June 21st this year.
My life has been ruined once before, and I have been caused badly pain, hell, and horror many times. But what happened on June 21st — is the end. In many ways it's worse than the when my life was already ruined once.

 

[AstralMadness]

And as the experience of my difficult, unhappy life has shown — non-humans are often born evil, evil has social groups and even ethnic groups.

?? so since white people have committed so many atrocities across history, does that mean ALL white people are evil? evil comes in every skin color, size, personality, so on and so on, whatever group you belong to doesn't necessarily make you evil

 

[Downdraft]

Defending yourself is one thing... removing bad people from your life is another thing... But "giving back" the same energy or seeking revenge or hurting others because they hurt you... it's a path that will never help you. Whatever they do/did to hurt you will still hurt AND you will add the guilt of knowing you are capable of hurting others on top of it.

Seeking revenge just adds to your hurt with new pain. It doesn't remove the old pain at all. It's not about being the "better person" for their benefit... it's about doing it and being true to yourself for YOUR benefit.

Pro-pacifism propaganda. Revenge, while if disproportionate can leave a bad emotional impact, is linked to reward mechanisms, rises short-term satisfaction, and has a biological purpose in both social status and evil deterrence. ...except you can skip the end. "You can accept the abuse." Lmao.

Whether you like it or not, it served an evolutionary purpose and continues to serve to this day.

And it isn't exclusive to humans. If a mechanism is practiced my thousands of species, and this behaviors have zero survival disadvantage in any of them... it's almost as if it's purposeful.

EDIT: a more serious paper: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160629130459.htm?

"Our paper consistently shows that the emotional consequences of revenge are a mixed bag, in that we feel both good and bad when we take revenge on another party. This counters some previous research on the topic, by our own lab and others, that revenge is a wholly negative experience," Eadeh said.

"We believe the reason people might feel good about revenge is because it allows us the opportunity to right a wrong and carry out the goal of punishing a bad guy," Eadeh said. "In our study, we found that Americans often expressed a great deal of satisfaction from bin Laden's death, presumably because we had ended the life of a person that was the mastermind behind a terror organization."

I'm literally a medically recognized narcissist and these messages are still the most grandiose shit I've ever seen.

I'm a childhood sex trafficking victim. I have possibly known more monsters than you ever have, and they were all human. That is the horror of it. Sit down, Hitler-wannane, I think there's a better forum for you.

Agreed there's no need to race-blame but being human alone isn't a jail-free card that saves one from any desert, if that's what you are implying. (Might be wrong).

 

[Dejected 55]

Pro-pacifism propaganda. Revenge, while if disproportionate can leave a bad emotional impact, is linked to reward mechanisms, rises short-term satisfaction, and has a biological purpose in both social status and evil deterrence. ...except you can skip the end. "You can accept the abuse." Lmao.

Whether you like it or not, it served an evolutionary purpose and continues to serve to this day.

And it isn't exclusive to humans. If a mechanism is practiced my thousands of species, and this behaviors have zero survival disadvantage in any of them... it's almost as if it's purposeful.

EDIT: a more serious paper: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160629130459.htm?

I never said revenge might not feel good in the moment. Sure, if you're motivated and hurt enough to seek revenge, it probably is going to feel good in the moment. But for most decent people, you're not going to erase your previous pain through revenge and you might just add guilt to it on top of it. And, you're not going to know how revenge will affect you until you've done it and you can't take it back.

Your linked article the "more serious paper" says this, essentially... because it says revenge can make a person feel good and bad. That's my point. You should think long and hard about the kind of person you are and think about how you might feel after the fact. There's a good chance the revenge isn't going to make you feel the long-term good you think it will.

 

[Downdraft]

But for most decent people

I knew you were soapboxing.

Let's see: I think I'm aware of what the article I just sent to you says. The quote I wrote explicitly calls it "mixed bag". Most bad parts are related to remembering or associating the traumatic event, which BTW by all means can continue happening without it.

However, you underestimated the good part too. You said:

Seeking revenge just adds to your hurt with new pain. It doesn't remove the old pain at all.

Which isn't really the case, since you then have to account for all the cases when it did indeed help the person cope or feel better without long-term increase in the pain. Obsession can be pretty bad, but it's something that can, and has been definitely done, with self-control. And again: it has legitimate uses and purposes.

If you now want to discuss the moral side of it, just say it. But don't mask it as a mental health advice while being charged of subjectivity.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

No one is entitled to what they are unwilling to reciprocate. I've come to believe that too...

If we are talking about revenge itself in the traditional sense then what Dejected 55 is probably completely true about the actual healing power of it. Besides, people who are willing to commit or be party to harm most likely aren't going to be universally so, meaning there are people in their lives they care about in a reciprocal manner and treat well, so if you're adamant about not harming innocent people then revenge isn't feasible because there is no way to avoid collateral damage even if it were reasonable to believe a specific person deserved to suffer.

Still recovering from harm when no amends have been attempted on the harmer's part is extremely difficult and wanting to get retribution especially when the traditional, kosher ways of doing so are ineffective or inaccessible is natural.

 

[Dejected 55]

As I've said... the desire for revenge is understandable. I just always caution folks not to jump to that knee-jerk reaction thinking that it will make you feel better to get revenge. If you were assaulted and you revenge assault (an eye for an eye) for abuser... it doesn't change the fact that you were assaulted, the physical pain and the emotional pain and how you may very well be less trusting and more on-edge around other people going forward. Getting revenge on your abuser doesn't change any of how you feel about the original assault. That's a separate thing.

Will some people feel good about revenge and that counter-balances the bad they feel from their assault? Sure. But you don't know how you are going to really feel until you go through with it... and IF you get your revenge and you don't feel better or if you feel worse for having lowered yourself from your normal standards... then you can't undo that either and you will have given your abuser more power over you in the process.

It's at least a part of why we theoretically have a "justice" system... not just to make sure people get fair trials and treatment and theoretically get punished according to their crimes... but it also alleviates the potential for guilt if everyone had to "avenge" their own injustices. Soldiers in kill-or-be-killed war situations come back with PTSD and guilt over having to kill someone in a justified kill. I was talking with several police officers recently, when I was being escorted to my involuntary hospital stays... and we were discussing the unfairness of people who try suicide-by-cop and how most cops are decent people who don't want to kill... and even in a situation where they have someone with a gun threatening and harming others, the cop who has to take that fatal shot and kill the perpetrator goes through counseling afterwards and most cops carry those justified kills around with them wondering if they could have ended the situation without killing the guy, even if the criminal in the situation was abhorrent... there's still the guilt a decent person has for having to kill even in self-defense or the protection of others.

That's my whole point... if you're a good person who doesn't want to harm others... but someone harms you, and you tilt towards revenge to "get even" or whatever... you're exactly the kind of person who has the potential to feel bad for not just the original harm done to you but the harm you were made to do to your abuser in response.

There was a good TNG quote from Chief O'Brien talking about things he did in the Cardassian war... he has trouble looking at other Cardassians peacefully post-war... and he says to one of them, "I don't hate you... I hate what I became because of you."

 

[Downdraft]

As I've said... the desire for revenge is understandable. I just always caution folks not to jump to that knee-jerk reaction thinking that it will make you feel better to get revenge. If you were assaulted and you revenge assault (an eye for an eye) for abuser... it doesn't change the fact that you were assaulted, the physical pain and the emotional pain and how you may very well be less trusting and more on-edge around other people going forward. Getting revenge on your abuser doesn't change any of how you feel about the original assault. That's a separate thing.

I don't really agree. For some it might be some of those things that help you close a chapter. The same way parents of murdered sons feel less awful after the killer is jailed. It can give a feeling of finishing something you had stuck for so long.

Obviously it doesn't mean it will get cured or that it isn't obviously still an awful feeling, but it's some help.

Will some people feel good about revenge and that counter-balances the bad they feel from their assault? Sure. But you don't know how you are going to really feel until you go through with it... and IF you get your revenge and you don't feel better or if you feel worse for having lowered yourself from your normal standards... then you can't undo that either and you will have given your abuser more power over you in the process.

Actually if they get it, they would lose some control as it was clearly not an intended outcome. Attacking someone is usually a lot easier to justify if it's caused by a blurred or traumatic state, and they wouldn't have the same social consequences including ostraticism etc, making it inherently easier to live with.

Soldiers in kill-or-be-killed war situations come back with PTSD and guilt over having to kill someone in a justified kill.

Soldiers fight for the interests of others and understand that, given the circumstances, that person wouldn't have done anything wrong to them. They are otherwise civilians who don't really want to wrong you but have no choice. Thus they feel they're killing something closer to innocents.

there's still the guilt a decent person has for having to kill even in self-defense or the protection of others.

Same as above.

That's my whole point... if you're a good person who doesn't want to harm others... but someone harms you, and you tilt towards revenge to "get even" or whatever... you're exactly the kind of person who has the potential to feel bad for not just the original harm done to you but the harm you were made to do to your abuser in response.

Since the examples list different feelings that one has for a perpetrator, I don't think the conclusion follows. We have selective empathy. We don't value or process feelings equally for everyone even if we wanted to.

Also all of this talks about potential, still ignoring the potential to feel otherwise.

It doesn't count but I've never met a rape victim unhappy that their rapist ended up dying. It also can be looked in society as a whole and people largely clearly feel better when a known one gets heavy punishment.

 

[Dejected 55]

It doesn't count but I've never met a rape victim unhappy that their rapist ended up dying. It also can be looked in society as a whole and people largely clearly feel better when a known one gets heavy punishment.

Be careful not to conflate justice with revenge. There's a difference between your abuser getting found, arrested, prosecuted, and thrown in jail for the rest of their life OR being executed OR dying by some other hands than your own... VS you chasing down your abuser and killing them yourself.

I would not begrudge someone seeking and taking revenge on an attacker. That's not what my argument is about. I'm 100% NOT going to judge you if you are raped and you go kill your rapist. I completely understand that urge to "get even" and punish your attacker. No judgment from me on that front. *My* concern, though, is... you've already been through a trauma... being raped... and then you go through a second trauma, taking a life... sure not the life of an innocent... a justified killing... but still, in your brain it's a life... and once the emotion calms down and you are on the road to recovery from your own trauma... can you compartmentalize what you did out-of-character in revenge? Most people cannot.

And... I have to imagine, what would feel worse than being raped? But feeling guilt over having killed your rapist... guilt over someone who doesn't deserve your guilt at all... but there it is, you feel guilt for taking a life, learning you are capable of taking a life, and knowing you only were driven to do it because of your abuse by that person.

I'm just saying... it's a lot to process, and most people don't process it as easily or casually as the "yeah go get your revenge" crowd would have you think.

But... that dude getting "just desserts" at someone else's hand? I can imagine you wouldn't lose sleep over it, and I wouldn't blame you for not caring.