Discussion Do you think a person has to entirely deny suicide as an option in order to recover?

[Forever Sleep]

Obviously- this thread discusses suicidal thoughts. Please ignore it if that's triggering for you.

Just to clarify- I'm not attempting to recover personally. However, this is something I think about. Do you think it's more likely a person will recover if they no longer consider suicide is a choice they are free to make? Does it make focussing on recovery easier or harder when a person decides suicide is no longer an option for them?

I think that's partly why I don't want to consider recovery now. Because I'm so attached to my suicidal thoughts. That said- when I was younger, I made steps to recover on several attempts, all the while- not ruling suicide out as an eventual possibility.

How do you see it? Is it sort of like alchoholics in recovery? A friend said they always considered themselves to be in recovery- rather than recovered. Maybe the knowledge that they could slip back is what kept them preventing it.

Can a fully recovered person still have ideation from time to time? What do you think? How do you approach your recovery? Do you still permit yourself to think about suicide as an option or, is it simply off the cards for you now? I'm just curious really. I imagine it must be difficult too- if you are choosing to try to banish those thoughts. I've had ideation for 36 years. It's difficult to imagine my perspective without them.

 

[NameOfAction]

I don't think you'll find genuinely recovered people on this forum. Recovery might not include fully removing suicide as an option, but it would surely include no longer reading this.

I don't know. I don't think so, but I'm not recovered. Even in my most sunny and peaceful moods I'm still firm on at least self-deliverance in my old age.

I've seen people die naturally and it's never, ever peaceful. Peaceful, natural death is a fairytale on par with the angels of heaven taking you up to see your maker. Natural death is brutal and takes decades of pitiful suffering. Both my great-grandmothers died in their 90s, I would never allow myself such pain

Does it count as suicidal? Hell if I know, but I will always go on my own terms. Thus, it is always an option

 

[Jadeith]

As pro-lifers love to preach: "suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problem". No matter how infuriating this is, i believe this statement contains answer to your question. Suicide is a "solution", not a problem. To recover, one must deal with the problem. People aren't suicidal just for being suicidal. They are suicidal because of something. Be it health problems (mental or otherwise), emotions, financial troubles etc.
So, if one wants to recover from suicidal tendencies, problem causing them must be solved first. I'm not here to argue that "other" solution is always possible because it isn't. I'm just saying that those who claim to have recovered or are recovering, in fact found a solution or otherwise learned how to deal with the problem that made them suicidal in the first place.

 

[Forever Sleep]

As pro-lifers love to preach: "suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problem". No matter how infuriating this is, i believe this statement contains answer to your question. Suicide is a "solution", not a problem. To recover, one must deal with the problem. People aren't suicidal just for being suicidal. They are suicidal because of something. Be it health problems (mental or otherwise), emotions, financial troubles etc.
So, if one wants to recover from suicidal tendencies, problem causing them must be solved first. I'm not here to argue that "other" solution is always possible because it isn't. I'm just saying that those who claim to have recovered or are recovering, in fact found a solution or otherwise learned how to deal with the problem that made them suicidal in the first place.

I definitely agree although- I wonder if closing off that choice is beneficial to recovery. We can tell ourselves that- even though we want to perform a certain action- we won't. Or, as NameofAction was describing- they will now try limiting considering it only to escape old age and illness.

For me- I intend it to be off the cards until my Dad goes first. So- I have certain conditions that will eventually make it permissible. It's not really about not having suicidal thoughts. It's saying- I have them but, I won't act on them. Do many people in recovery do that?

It's more that I'm curious how people go about recovery I suppose. In fighting my tendency to develop limerent crushes on people- I have to literally be aware of my thoughts and stop them- if I start fixating on someone. I just wonder if people do this regarding suicidal thoughts.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

I think saying "yes" to that would be hypocritical given my support of assisted suicide.

I mean, it kind of takes the agency away from disabled people to say that to live a meaningful and "recovered" life we must never consider suicide. So many of our disorders are degenerative. Dementia runs my family too.

I think the person must be committed to living. Whatever happens in the future, happens, but I think they mostly just have to leave behind the constant passive suicidal ideation that so many of us suffer from.

And by "leave behind," I just mean... gain coping skills to deal with it. Not let it consume their life. Nothing is perfect, so we shouldn't strive to be perfectly healed. But if we let our passive ideation stay integral to us, we'll always have one foot in the grave, whether our body follows suit or not.

And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm striving too much for perfection too. Sometimes "recovery" is subjective. Maybe you can recover, even while experiencing suicidality in all forms. I sure hope that's how it works. That means I have more of a chance to achieve it myself.

 

[Seven Threads]

This is actually something I have thought a lot about myself. Admittedly, I have never been suicidal, so my perspective is something of an outsider's, and I hope you can forgive me for providing it regardless. That being said, I think it probably depends on the form of recovery you are talking about.

As Jadeith above elucidated quite well, one form of recovery is that in which the suicidal person addresses or somehow resolves the underlying issue that was causing them to feel suicidal in the first place. As they mentioned, this is not always possible, but when it is, people who recover in this manner often report that the desire to catch the bus itself simply goes away, and is no longer something they have to contend with. Some can even barely understand or remember why they felt that way in the first place.

But that isn't the only form of 'recovery'. Some people never do find a way to address the underlying cause behind their suicidal ideations. Some people can't, as mentioned above. And, importantly, some people don't seem to have an underlying cause in the first place. We outsiders like to tell ourselves that everyone with SI only feels that way because they've been backed into a corner by some kind of trauma or suffering, but I've been around the forum long enough to see that this isn't always the case. Some people just feel that way, strongly even, without any apparent cause at all.

For all of these, recovery can look very different. It isn't about curing or getting rid of the suicidal ideations, but choosing to live in spite of them. And, yes, even if that decision is 'just for now' and the door is left wide open. It's kind of similar to chronic depression in that respect. You never really get through it in the way that people who've never experienced it think, like getting over a cold. You develop coping strategies, regimens, ways to live alongside it and still be satisfied. The 'black dog', if you will.

If you experience SI, but still want to recover, even just temporarily, that's okay. In fact, I think that honoring those intentions and ideations and what they mean to you is an important part of the process. In the best case, regardless of form, recovery typically involves embracing and learning to accept or even love yourself, and the part of you that ideates is a part of that whole.

Long story short, no, I don't think it's necessary to break away from suicidal ideation in order to recover. I think for some, holding onto that may even be important. What matters is that you can sit with the will to live and the will to end, hold them both in your hand, and make a choice, knowing and trusting that both are valid and true. It's the only way to be honest with yourself.

 

[CatLvr]

Nope. At least, not in my case. I still consider suicide pretty regularly -- especially when my pain levels are high -- like today. Then I find myself contemplating just how much more should I actually put up with ... Sigh ...

 

[Jadeith]

I wonder if closing off that choice is beneficial to recovery.

I always was and will try my best to remain pro choice so "closing off" anything is not something i would go with. Then again, for me, recovery is finding solution other than suicide to a problem that caused being suicidal in the first place. For example - if you want to ctb because of chronic pain, recovery would be finding suitable and affordable treatment or medicine that would remove the pain. If you want to die to avoid being a burden as you age - would being surrounded by loving and supportive people change that? Probably. Maybe yes, maybe no. But it's still different solution than dying here and now so it could be counted as recovery.
I saw many threads here titled "if x happened, would it make you less suicidal". Or even more straightforward - "what would have to happen to stop you from being suicidal". And those are usually full of answers. Unfortunately, many of those answers are unattainable for those who provided them. For me for example we'd need at least partial memory loss to erase specific elements of my past and severe "preference adjustment" as i deeply hate elements of my persona. How to do it? I haven't found a way yet. Is that even possible? I dunno. Maybe? Would i "recover" should these requirements be met? I guess so...

 

[3/4Dead]

I would think not. I agree with some others who've posted here saying that it depends on what kind of recovery you mean. I think the only time one must deny suicide as an option to recover is if they are recovering from suicidial ideaton. If you're recovering from depression but still consider suicide, you are still recovering. If you are recovering from PTSD but still consider suicide, you are still recovering.

 

[MephiticShadow]

For me, I think my suicidal ideation is crucial to my "recovery"
It's how I don't feel trapped here. I can choose life because it is a choice. The door will always be open. That is the comfort that gives me the strength to choose life.

 

[westerly_merlin]

I can only speak from my own experience, I am recovering from a very dark time. I made a serious attempt last year but since then have been getting help, and helping myself, but I still have the option to check out at the back of my mind.

I don't ever think it will go away, and whilst I am in a positive place at the moment, it is still something I think about from time to time.

I don't know if it is a baseline I measure my mood/sense of worth against, to see how I am doing, or it is just one option of many I could take.

My partner and my therapist ask if I still hace suicidal or self harm thoughts but at the moment I am not happy to share that I do still have them. It would cause them more worry and I am on top of things.

 

[buriedinmyhead]

I'm unsure. I think the goal for recovery is to try and find ways to cope with said feelings and try to remove the issues that lead to the feelings in the first place. I don't want to say suicide is never an option, as like someone else said, some people may choose euthanasia for terminal illness or disability, but you should probably at least make it so that suicide is a very small option, like very last thing to consider.

 

[EveningStock]

Obviously- this thread discusses suicidal thoughts. Please ignore it if that's triggering for you.

Just to clarify- I'm not attempting to recover personally. However, this is something I think about. Do you think it's more likely a person will recover if they no longer consider suicide is a choice they are free to make? Does it make focussing on recovery easier or harder when a person decides suicide is no longer an option for them?

I think that's partly why I don't want to consider recovery now. Because I'm so attached to my suicidal thoughts. That said- when I was younger, I made steps to recover on several attempts, all the while- not ruling suicide out as an eventual possibility.

How do you see it? Is it sort of like alchoholics in recovery? A friend said they always considered themselves to be in recovery- rather than recovered. Maybe the knowledge that they could slip back is what kept them preventing it.

Can a fully recovered person still have ideation from time to time? What do you think? How do you approach your recovery? Do you still permit yourself to think about suicide as an option or, is it simply off the cards for you now? I'm just curious really. I imagine it must be difficult too- if you are choosing to try to banish those thoughts. I've had ideation for 36 years. It's difficult to imagine my perspective without them.

In my personal experience, knowing there's an option to just check out, helped me get better. Existing was unbearable at some point and I couldn't even fathom going through this every single day. So I was like: "Ok, let's just survive this day and if it gets too much, I will kill myself".

I still find suicidal ideation sort of comforting, what's probably fucked up and I don't think I will ever get rid of those thoughts. And I guess it means I will never fully recover, cause let's be real, considering your own death is not a normal thing, a psychiatrist would diagnose us all with multiple disorders.

At the same time I believe recovery is a personal experience and can be understand in different ways. Some will consider eliminating suicidal thoughts crucial for a recovery and for some they are part of the process.

So I feel for the world I will never recover but in my in my own eyes I am recovering.

 

[SchizoPolyGymnast]

Absolutely not. I view what I call "background suicidality" as a form of harm reduction, and harm reduction is recovery. Recovery to me is living well. It's not living perfect, but finding the calm and the joy and the humor amidst the stuff that sucks.

 

[HopelessScientist]

Obviously- this thread discusses suicidal thoughts. Please ignore it if that's triggering for you.

Just to clarify- I'm not attempting to recover personally. However, this is something I think about. Do you think it's more likely a person will recover if they no longer consider suicide is a choice they are free to make? Does it make focussing on recovery easier or harder when a person decides suicide is no longer an option for them?

I think that's partly why I don't want to consider recovery now. Because I'm so attached to my suicidal thoughts. That said- when I was younger, I made steps to recover on several attempts, all the while- not ruling suicide out as an eventual possibility.

How do you see it? Is it sort of like alchoholics in recovery? A friend said they always considered themselves to be in recovery- rather than recovered. Maybe the knowledge that they could slip back is what kept them preventing it.

Can a fully recovered person still have ideation from time to time? What do you think? How do you approach your recovery? Do you still permit yourself to think about suicide as an option or, is it simply off the cards for you now? I'm just curious really. I imagine it must be difficult too- if you are choosing to try to banish those thoughts. I've had ideation for 36 years. It's difficult to imagine my perspective without them.

When I recovered briefly from 18-22 from depression I was still suicidal. I loved every flower, every sunset, every day I felt excited and satisfied with myself. I still wanted to die.

I think you can recover without letting go of your suicidal thoughts, they'll just be less frequent, less inevitable, there'll be less hopelessness pushing you to it.

Oddly enough, I am super depressed now, hopeless, feel like shit, I came on here to plan my suicide and I did. I have it all planned out. Now, from now till then I am not suicidal at all. I don't have to think about suicide anymore. I think having that plan allows me to work on myself and my well-being, because now I know I am fighting for my life.

 

[heywey]

This is actually something I have thought a lot about myself. Admittedly, I have never been suicidal, so my perspective is something of an outsider's, and I hope you can forgive me for providing it regardless. That being said, I think it probably depends on the form of recovery you are talking about.

As Jadeith above elucidated quite well, one form of recovery is that in which the suicidal person addresses or somehow resolves the underlying issue that was causing them to feel suicidal in the first place. As they mentioned, this is not always possible, but when it is, people who recover in this manner often report that the desire to catch the bus itself simply goes away, and is no longer something they have to contend with. Some can even barely understand or remember why they felt that way in the first place.

But that isn't the only form of 'recovery'. Some people never do find a way to address the underlying cause behind their suicidal ideations. Some people can't, as mentioned above. And, importantly, some people don't seem to have an underlying cause in the first place. We outsiders like to tell ourselves that everyone with SI only feels that way because they've been backed into a corner by some kind of trauma or suffering, but I've been around the forum long enough to see that this isn't always the case. Some people just feel that way, strongly even, without any apparent cause at all.

For all of these, recovery can look very different. It isn't about curing or getting rid of the suicidal ideations, but choosing to live in spite of them. And, yes, even if that decision is 'just for now' and the door is left wide open. It's kind of similar to chronic depression in that respect. You never really get through it in the way that people who've never experienced it think, like getting over a cold. You develop coping strategies, regimens, ways to live alongside it and still be satisfied. The 'black dog', if you will.

If you experience SI, but still want to recover, even just temporarily, that's okay. In fact, I think that honoring those intentions and ideations and what they mean to you is an important part of the process. In the best case, regardless of form, recovery typically involves embracing and learning to accept or even love yourself, and the part of you that ideates is a part of that whole.

Long story short, no, I don't think it's necessary to break away from suicidal ideation in order to recover. I think for some, holding onto that may even be important. What matters is that you can sit with the will to live and the will to end, hold them both in your hand, and make a choice, knowing and trusting that both are valid and true. It's the only way to be honest with yourself.

I don't have anything to contribute to the conversation, just wanted to say that was beautifully put, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[flowerbomb]

I think it is a continous struggle which you have to keep in balance, that in recovery you are determined to not again let the suicidal thoughts win.

 

[SoLowHollow48]

Compartmentalization is key.

 

[whywere]

No.

Like all most everything in life and how the human brain works, even if it is 1% it is still there.

Memory is memory and also, I wonder, have no idea myself, if the 1% of suicidal ideation helps in recovery?

After 2 attempts, knowing that if and when the chronic pain gets too much, I will start the process of decision making and BOTH live and die will be in the equation no matter if I want it to be or not.

Walter