Can you compare women soccer with men soccer?

[noname223]

It is European championchip in women soccer. My friends watch it, I don't watch it and we had a debate how one can compare it.

In media there were many reports the men U15 of Luzern a city in Switzerland won a test Match against the Swiss women national Team 7:1. My friends said this does not prove anything and that the coverage is unfair. They don't know that much about soccer though


I see a couple of advantages in women soccer.
Less drama, the players are fairer and they don't behave like actors after fouls
Less homophobia
Less corruption, it is more about sports and less about money

However, when we look at the pace, the techniques men soccer simply is better. Not all of that stems from biologically. Women could also Do the same tricks and have the same shooting techniques. But there are less Investments in women soccer. Money makes a diffefence.
If society cared more women soccer could become way better. And I think there are signs that women soccer makes faster progress than men soccer.

Personally, I almost only watch men champions league soccer in finales. And I could imagine here on the highest levels physics plays a bigger role to push the limits. I cannot compare men soccer on lower levels with women soccer.

In general I am also not a soccer expert but I certainly know more about soccer than my friends.

I think they are right not a few men Look down at women soccer. I am pretty sure I could never be better than any women you can watch on TV. Also if I trained without end from my childhood on. Some men think they are superior just because male professional soccer teams probably can beat female teams on similar levels. But it does not say much about the skills of an average male Player.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

The funding is probably bad and there is a lot of hate towards it from dumb idiots for sure.

I personally think sports and their fans are usually too toxic or backwards thinking to have any kind of benefit going into; especially when you are a woman. Obviously , it doesn't and shouldn't stop you from pursuing it but you are still going to face numerous hurdles and bullshit.

Even as a man, if you are not the cookie cutter type man which the industry demands and some things about the activity fundamentally piss you off; you are unlikely to want to do sport or soccer as a profession even if you have the capability for it.

And again as previously stated, there won't be any significant funding in the current society. We should focus on getting women to be treated like normal people and then we'll be able to address these issues better.

 

[Dejected 55]

You can compare anything to anything. Why compare women's soccer to men's soccer? Why not compare men's soccer to men's target shooting? The men with rifles in target shooting would literally kill the men's soccer team... no competition!

The point of the humor there is... why compare?

There are valid reasons sometimes... like when women aren't paid proportionally as much in their sports as men are in theirs... especially if you consider the worst men's teams that aren't winning anything getting paid more than the best women's teams who are winning. That's a fair question to ask why a winning team isn't more valuable in their similar sport than a losing team in another?

And what does it even mean if a men's soccer team beats a women's team? What would it mean if the women's team beat the men's team?

Back when the USA decided to switch to professional basketball players for the olympics instead if using college players since they were not winning anymore reliably... in one of the first outings a group of college all-start beat the pants over that first "Dream Team." Of course, the Dream Team beat the crap out of them in a rematch and everyone else they played that year... but if you want to pin it all on one game. that first match the pro players were embarrassed by the college kids.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't know much about football. It doesn't really interest me. Although, I believe the UK women's football team is performing better than the men's in respect of their individual league tables. Would the men beat the women in a match? Maybe. Who knows?

I'd imagine some of it might well be down to strength and stamina though. I imagine men and women are genetically predisposed to be able to be better in certain areas. So- while a competition between the sexes is interesting, I'm also not too sure that it's all together fair. Which touches on the trans debate I suppose. If it can be proved that some trans women retain their biological male advantage, is it all that fair to let them compete against cis women?

Take a hypothetical scenario. Would we pit a fully grown silverback gorilla against a man in weight lifting? They are capable of lifting 800kg. The world record for a human is 501kg. The gorilla could lift the weight and the weight lifter combined. Lol. We wouldn't even consider it a fair match because the gorilla is simply capable of being stronger. Similarly, with all the training, correct diet, exercise in the world, are there some things some people will simply never physically be able to achieve? I don't know but, I inagine so. In a lot of events that rely on strength, men beat women. I think therefore, they need to be judged on their own merits or in a serious competition, competing against their own gender.

As to who you prefer to watch. I expect that's down to personal preference. I expect men and women may enjoy watching the opposite or same gender play sports because they think they're hot too. Lol.

What's the argument here though? Which is 'better'? Do they deserve more money then? It reminds me of 'Battle of the Sexes'. The 2017 film that examined women's struggles to be recognised in tennis- especially financially.

To put it to you in terms of finances. How should athletes be paid? Equally or, by how much money they generate? Their popularity? I imagine in that case, men would take the edge although, maybe not always by that much.

It's not to call you out for being sexist. I don't believe you are. It's just that sport is wrapped up in money and equality issues- just like everything else. Comparison between the sexes and deciding one is better than the other invaribly must lead to questions on who deserves more money/ funding to begin with.

I don't watch much sport but I suppose I'd be more likely to watch men compete. I suppose generally because they are stronger, and have more power to do things. Depends on the sport though really. For Gymnastics, men and women look equally amazing to me.

 

[Dejected 55]

I'd imagine some of it might well be down to strength and stamina though. I imagine men and women are genetically predisposed to be able to be better in certain areas. So- while a competition between the sexes is interesting, I'm also not too sure that it's all together fair. Which touches on the trans debate I suppose. If it can be proved that some trans women retain their biological male advantage, is it all that fair to let them compete against cis women?

...

That's where the actual debate about trans athletes should be. There is a valid scientific conversation that could be had there IF people wanted. Unfortunately, that's not the typical conversation people want to have. At least here in the US, the folks you hear railing on TV about how "unfair" it is for men to "pretend" to be women to excel in sports are the same people who either actually did OR definitely would have fought against Title IX in support of women's sports in schools. These people don't care one shit, much less two shits, about actual women's sports. They only "care" in theory because it gives them a wedge to rail against trans women for yet another unfounded reason.

There are cis women who have unfair advantages over other women. There are cis women who have higher testosterone naturally than trans women or cis men too. Is it unfair for the tallest women to compete in basketball because they are so much larger than all the other women in the sport? Why not, they are technically aberrations and have an "unfair" advantage over all the other women.

Also... you never hear anyone saying it is "unfair" for trans men to compete in men's sports. Why is that? Because women are always perceived as weaker so nobody gives a fuck about trans men. It's funny, the anti-trans crowd would absolutely tell you that a trans man is still a woman, then they would talk about how the want to protect women, then they don't give an actual fuck about trans men who they would say are women. Their whole house of cards is so easily dismantled.

They don't give a flying fuck about actual trans men or women... they only use them as a wedge to distract people and rile up people because "different = bad" and they don't care about women's sports at all.

Also, there are zero issues in actual reality of men "pretending" to be women in order to excel in women's sports. There are near-zero issues of trans women dominating their competition and taking all the records and whatnot.

...

To put it to you in terms of finances. How should athletes be paid? Equally or, by how much money they generate? Their popularity? I imagine in that case, men would take the edge although, maybe not always by that much.

And here is the rub where women have been getting short-changed.

Nobody can reasonably suggest that the women in the WNBA should get paid the same as men in the NBA. You just can't make that case because the WNBA doesn't bring in near the revenue that the NBA does. So, even if you can (and actually can if you are a fan) that women's sports are just as entertaining with the top talent in their respective leagues and that the best women in sports are as entertaining and impressive as their male counterparts... if the fans and the money isn't there to support it... you can't demand equal pay for equal work.

This isn't a scientist situation where the woman curing cancer is somehow "worth less" or the female-invented widget isn't as valuable as it would had a man invented it... No, those are absolutely equal pay for equal work situations that we NEED to fix in society... but sports and entertainment... it has to be tied to the revenue.

IF people want to see Caitlin Clark play as much as they want to see Stephen Curry and they are willing to pay just as much and the team and the league generates the same revenue... then by damn pay her the same as Curry too! 100%... but that's not current reality, so the dollar amount can't be the same.

BUT the percentage can. If you can make the case (and you can) that Clark brings (random number here) 20% more revenue to the league then she better be paid reflective of that. I always argue that for men too. Whenever people complain at what athletes and actors make... I always say, people pay to see the performers, so the performers should get the lions' share of the profits. Sure, others are important and should be paid too... but take the stars out of the leagues or the movies, and the revenue tanks... so pay your star performers proportionally to what the league brings in.

And... in most cases of female professional sports, this doesn't happen. The leagues aren't bringing in the same as the men... except every once in a while actually in women's soccer sometimes the more prominent women's team in an area IS bringing in more because they are winning more than their male counterpart team in that area... and IF the team is bringing in the money, the women should be getting paid.

Tennis had this issue recently... where I can't remember if it was Wimbledon but I'll use that as an example... where the women's tennis matches were bringing in more revenue than the men's and the ratings were higher for the women players... but the prize for the women's champion was not as high as the men... and the argument there was hey, wait a minute, how do the women bring in more money for the sport but get paid less than the men?

 

[Forever Sleep]

That's where the actual debate about trans athletes should be. There is a valid scientific conversation that could be had there IF people wanted. Unfortunately, that's not the typical conversation people want to have. At least here in the US, the folks you hear railing on TV about how "unfair" it is for men to "pretend" to be women to excel in sports are the same people who either actually did OR definitely would have fought against Title IX in support of women's sports in schools. These people don't care one shit, much less two shits, about actual women's sports. They only "care" in theory because it gives them a wedge to rail against trans women for yet another unfounded reason.

There are cis women who have unfair advantages over other women. There are cis women who have higher testosterone naturally than trans women or cis men too. Is it unfair for the tallest women to compete in basketball because they are so much larger than all the other women in the sport? Why not, they are technically aberrations and have an "unfair" advantage over all the other women.

Also... you never hear anyone saying it is "unfair" for trans men to compete in men's sports. Why is that? Because women are always perceived as weaker so nobody gives a fuck about trans men. It's funny, the anti-trans crowd would absolutely tell you that a trans man is still a woman, then they would talk about how the want to protect women, then they don't give an actual fuck about trans men who they would say are women. Their whole house of cards is so easily dismantled.

They don't give a flying fuck about actual trans men or women... they only use them as a wedge to distract people and rile up people because "different = bad" and they don't care about women's sports at all.

Also, there are zero issues in actual reality of men "pretending" to be women in order to excel in women's sports. There are near-zero issues of trans women dominating their competition and taking all the records and whatnot.

And here is the rub where women have been getting short-changed.

Nobody can reasonably suggest that the women in the WNBA should get paid the same as men in the NBA. You just can't make that case because the WNBA doesn't bring in near the revenue that the NBA does. So, even if you can (and actually can if you are a fan) that women's sports are just as entertaining with the top talent in their respective leagues and that the best women in sports are as entertaining and impressive as their male counterparts... if the fans and the money isn't there to support it... you can't demand equal pay for equal work.

This isn't a scientist situation where the woman curing cancer is somehow "worth less" or the female-invented widget isn't as valuable as it would had a man invented it... No, those are absolutely equal pay for equal work situations that we NEED to fix in society... but sports and entertainment... it has to be tied to the revenue.

IF people want to see Caitlin Clark play as much as they want to see Stephen Curry and they are willing to pay just as much and the team and the league generates the same revenue... then by damn pay her the same as Curry too! 100%... but that's not current reality, so the dollar amount can't be the same.

BUT the percentage can. If you can make the case (and you can) that Clark brings (random number here) 20% more revenue to the league then she better be paid reflective of that. I always argue that for men too. Whenever people complain at what athletes and actors make... I always say, people pay to see the performers, so the performers should get the lions' share of the profits. Sure, others are important and should be paid too... but take the stars out of the leagues or the movies, and the revenue tanks... so pay your star performers proportionally to what the league brings in.

And... in most cases of female professional sports, this doesn't happen. The leagues aren't bringing in the same as the men... except every once in a while actually in women's soccer sometimes the more prominent women's team in an area IS bringing in more because they are winning more than their male counterpart team in that area... and IF the team is bringing in the money, the women should be getting paid.

Tennis had this issue recently... where I can't remember if it was Wimbledon but I'll use that as an example... where the women's tennis matches were bringing in more revenue than the men's and the ratings were higher for the women players... but the prize for the women's champion was not as high as the men... and the argument there was hey, wait a minute, how do the women bring in more money for the sport but get paid less than the men?

The trans women in sports argument is an immensely complicated one. I actually didn't realise that if the hormone treatment is started early enough, she won't actually retain the 'male advantage.' In which case- it would seem fairer.

But true- some people will have a natural edge over others anyway- height advantage, lung capacity etc. I suppose the idea is to make the playing field as level as possible though- in order to make competition valid.

I suppose sport is aspirational- as in- you could become this if you only work hard enough. Again, sort of unrealistic but, in broad terms- could I as a female ever become as strong as someone born biologically male? I don't know. For trans women, maybe it does depend on when the transition took place.

I suppose I can see it from both sides really. I think I can understand the deep desire to transition and be recognised in that body. There again, if I was good at sports. If my scholarship say relied on me excelling in a certain field- perhaps a literal field! I suspect I would be upset if I was up against even more competition that I likely would never beat- no matter how much training I put in.

I just think it needs more research and, needs to be proven either way. Obviously, if there aren't consistent advantages for trans women then, cis women will just have to up their game even more I suppose.

True though- we don't hear so many complaints about cis men in sports. I think people who are transphobic will just complain about everything though. They won't want a 'win' anywhere. It's similar to homophobia really. People dislike them being promiscuous but, they don't want them marrying either! With some people, you simply can't win.

Yes, tennis was a big issue for women. The film I originally mentioned was about that. Female tennis players today still thank Billie Jean King for evening the score.

I guess a lot of money in sports comes from sponsorship/ advertisement so, I suppose that will tend to attach itself to those who people find the most appealing- both men and women.

 

[Dejected 55]

The trans women in sports argument is an immensely complicated one. I actually didn't realise that if the hormone treatment is started early enough, she won't actually retain the 'male advantage.' In which case- it would seem fairer.

But true- some people will have a natural edge over others anyway- height advantage, lung capacity etc. I suppose the idea is to make the playing field as level as possible though- in order to make competition valid.

I suppose sport is aspirational- as in- you could become this if you only work hard enough. Again, sort of unrealistic but, in broad terms- could I as a female ever become as strong as someone born biologically male? I don't know. For trans women, maybe it does depend on when the transition took place.

I suppose I can see it from both sides really. I think I can understand the deep desire to transition and be recognised in that body. There again, if I was good at sports. If my scholarship say relied on me excelling in a certain field- perhaps a literal field! I suspect I would be upset if I was up against even more competition that I likely would never beat- no matter how much training I put in.

I just think it needs more research and, needs to be proven either way. Obviously, if there aren't consistent advantages for trans women then, cis women will just have to up their game even more I suppose.

True though- we don't hear so many complaints about cis men in sports. I think people who are transphobic will just complain about everything though. They won't want a 'win' anywhere. It's similar to homophobia really. People dislike them being promiscuous but, they don't want them marrying either! With some people, you simply can't win.

Yes, tennis was a big issue for women. The film I originally mentioned was about that. Female tennis players today still thank Billie Jean King for evening the score.

I guess a lot of money in sports comes from sponsorship/ advertisement so, I suppose that will tend to attach itself to those who people find the most appealing- both men and women.

I'm a 6' tall cis man. I LOVED playing basketball as a kid. But by the time I was college age, a 6' tall man was considered small in basketball. I could not compete physically with peers who were 6'6" playing the same position as I would play. Granted I had no aspirations to be a college or pro athlete... but the point is, there is not much place for a man my size anymore in professional team sports. And, arguably I am above average height for a man in the US... so... where's the outrage at that? Maybe players above 6'7" should be banned because of unfair competitive advantage and those would then become the centers and I would be able to play point guard at my height. UNFAIR! Ban all the tall men from sports because its too unfair to the majority of men who are nowhere near that height and they have a competitive advantage!

That's silly, right? There are some tall women too... rarer to be sure, but proportionally to the lower average height for women, it still poses the same disadvantage. if you want "competitive" advantage then the only way to come close to that would be segregating sports not just by gender, but by height and weight too... like how boxing does it. They have weight classes and you have to fight against people in a certain range.

Michael Phelps had an advantage for a while there in swimming... Usain Bolt was so damn fast I swear watching his earliest races it looked like the other competitors were running in the opposite direction. He embarrassed them! Maybe it was unfair for those guys to compete when no one else had a chance at all. Or when Tiger Woods was at his peak and nobody could touch him on the golf course...

And I still echo how the loudest complaints about "unfair competitive advantage" of trans athletes comes from people who otherwise do not care about women's sports... and most of them on that side right now would rather see the WNBA and women's soccer and so forth fold their tents and the women go back to folding laundry and making babies. Test them... talk to any of them long enough and tell me you don't see them wind around to that eventually. In which case, IF the thought about it and there really was any trans woman advantage... maybe they should encourage more of it to discourage cis women from sports so they'll go home and be barefoot in the kitchen again. Stupid hateful prejudiced people can't even get their own hate right and they compete with their own mixed messages!

Long story short on trans athletes... is that Trans people as a whole (men, women, non-binary all lumped together) are a fraction of a percent of the population and then the percentage of those who also are athletes? It's honestly not worth conversation on and yet look how much effort is coming from government right now trying to ban trans athletes across the US... you'd think it was the most important issue and people were dying or something... but fuck trying to stop mass shootings or poverty or fix health care... gotta fix that "trans athlete pandemic" or whatever, right? It's insane.

And yeah, on Billie Jean King... I admit to not paying as much attention to her as I should have when I was growing up. I just knew her as a really good tennis player and I used to be a big fan of men and women's tennis... my parents and I regularly watched tennis when I was a kid... but I didn't pay attention at the time at all of that MS King was doing for women's rights and women's rights in sports. That she was sable to put so much effort into that for the good of all women and also be as good as she was in her day... pretty damn amazing.

In a more general sense... people spend way too much time trying to tear others down than they do trying to better themselves OR just let people be. Society would be so much better if people could stop trying to take others down. I mean, it's so insanely easy to let someone else do their thing when it isn't hurting you... why people spin and waste so much energy trying to hold people back defies logic.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm a 6' tall cis man. I LOVED playing basketball as a kid. But by the time I was college age, a 6' tall man was considered small in basketball. I could not compete physically with peers who were 6'6" playing the same position as I would play. Granted I had no aspirations to be a college or pro athlete... but the point is, there is not much place for a man my size anymore in professional team sports. And, arguably I am above average height for a man in the US... so... where's the outrage at that? Maybe players above 6'7" should be banned because of unfair competitive advantage and those would then become the centers and I would be able to play point guard at my height. UNFAIR! Ban all the tall men from sports because its too unfair to the majority of men who are nowhere near that height and they have a competitive advantage!

That's silly, right? There are some tall women too... rarer to be sure, but proportionally to the lower average height for women, it still poses the same disadvantage. if you want "competitive" advantage then the only way to come close to that would be segregating sports not just by gender, but by height and weight too... like how boxing does it. They have weight classes and you have to fight against people in a certain range.

Michael Phelps had an advantage for a while there in swimming... Usain Bolt was so damn fast I swear watching his earliest races it looked like the other competitors were running in the opposite direction. He embarrassed them! Maybe it was unfair for those guys to compete when no one else had a chance at all. Or when Tiger Woods was at his peak and nobody could touch him on the golf course...

And I still echo how the loudest complaints about "unfair competitive advantage" of trans athletes comes from people who otherwise do not care about women's sports... and most of them on that side right now would rather see the WNBA and women's soccer and so forth fold their tents and the women go back to folding laundry and making babies. Test them... talk to any of them long enough and tell me you don't see them wind around to that eventually. In which case, IF the thought about it and there really was any trans woman advantage... maybe they should encourage more of it to discourage cis women from sports so they'll go home and be barefoot in the kitchen again. Stupid hateful prejudiced people can't even get their own hate right and they compete with their own mixed messages!

Long story short on trans athletes... is that Trans people as a whole (men, women, non-binary all lumped together) are a fraction of a percent of the population and then the percentage of those who also are athletes? It's honestly not worth conversation on and yet look how much effort is coming from government right now trying to ban trans athletes across the US... you'd think it was the most important issue and people were dying or something... but fuck trying to stop mass shootings or poverty or fix health care... gotta fix that "trans athlete pandemic" or whatever, right? It's insane.

And yeah, on Billie Jean King... I admit to not paying as much attention to her as I should have when I was growing up. I just knew her as a really good tennis player and I used to be a big fan of men and women's tennis... my parents and I regularly watched tennis when I was a kid... but I didn't pay attention at the time at all of that MS King was doing for women's rights and women's rights in sports. That she was sable to put so much effort into that for the good of all women and also be as good as she was in her day... pretty damn amazing.

In a more general sense... people spend way too much time trying to tear others down than they do trying to better themselves OR just let people be. Society would be so much better if people could stop trying to take others down. I mean, it's so insanely easy to let someone else do their thing when it isn't hurting you... why people spin and waste so much energy trying to hold people back defies logic.

I guess in a way, that would be the ideal- that people could compete in the equivalent of featherweight, heavyweight classes etc.There would obviously have to be enough interest and competitors for that though.

But sure- they probably don't care about sport. It's just something they can latch on to. Do cis female athletes care? I don't know but, probably- if they keep being defeated! Who likes to lose?

That said, it's definitely not representative of the reality of the world. In reality, we all have to compete with one another!

I liked basketball too. My school was really mean though. Most of the time, they forced the girls to play netball. Not that I was much good at either! That's a shame you felt you had to quit. Do you still do it as a hobby?

 

[Dejected 55]

I guess in a way, that would be the ideal- that people could compete in the equivalent of featherweight, heavyweight classes etc.There would obviously have to be enough interest and competitors for that though.

But sure- they probably don't care about sport. It's just something they can latch on to. Do cis female athletes care? I don't know but, probably- if they keep being defeated! Who likes to lose?

That said, it's definitely not representative of the reality of the world. In reality, we all have to compete with one another!

I liked basketball too. My school was really mean though. Most of the time, they forced the girls to play netball. Not that I was much good at either! That's a shame you felt you had to quit. Do you still do it as a hobby?

The thing is... there isn't an epidemic of trans women beating all the cis women in sports. I have seen a couple of stories, though, where a girl was complaining that her team was beat by a team with a trans girl and how unfair it was... only to turn out the other team had no trans girls on its team at all. It's like the bathroom thing, where cis women are being harassed and having to prove they are "real women" just as often as trans women are... because, you know, some women don't look "womanly enough" or whatever. Have there been some instances of trans women beating cis women in sports? Sure. But in the cases I've seen those trans women were themselves beaten by other cis women and the girl having lost previously to the trans girl also lost to other cis girls too... you know, kind of how sports works where very few people or teams go undefeated.

It's a solution looking for a problem that isn't happening, basically.

I never played basketball for school, just growing up in the neighborhood. Back in my early 30s when I got into shape, I would go to a local park and play in pick-up games. I actually enjoyed it more when there were less people. Some people got too competitive in the pick-up games and I saw more than a few fights break out. I did meet a nice guy one time, though, who was a little older than I was but was there for the same reason... exercise. He wasn't there for arguments just for fun and exercise. I liked that dude, had a good head on his shoulders and he was a good player but he played for fun not to be the king of the court. He elbowed me in the face one time going for a rebound and it looked like he felt as bad about it as I did... so, his heart was in the right place.

I haven't played in over 20 years though.. basically once I stopped trying to stay in shape because I had no reason. Sometimes i miss it a little... but I could put up a goal at my house if I really wanted to... I wouldn't go play with others again, too many problems with that and I don't want to deal with personalities.

Back when my mother was in school... she played a little... and back then, she said they didn't allow the girls to dribble but a couple of times. Sounded weird.