Method Any successful attempts by SWB (Shallow Water Blackout)

[csdfghjjk_user]

I read the mega tread (https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/shallow-water-blackout.4315/) but it is closed for any replies/questions and I have not seen anyone "successfully" attempting it. Any experience on this method? It seems too good to be true and could be ruled as an accident.

And as I understand, hyperventilating is necessary for blackout and painless drowning. If you gain unconsciousness otherwise and drown, would that also be painless? It seems it makes most sense in a large body of water, eg a lake. And at a time and place where no one can come for rescue. I wouldn't want to attach weights to myself but also don't understand how I'd stay underwater otherwise(?).

I am happy to be pointed to some more sources, thank you

 

[four_walls_girl]

I dunno about successful attempts but I tried testing out blacking out by hyperventilating for like 5-10 minutes straight for a full hour and each time I could just not get it right for some reason, got dizzy but never blacked out. It's a method I really want to do though cause you only need water and that's it :/

I think it only works if you're too exhausted to wake back up or to move if you do, but then it wouldn't exactly be painless drowning if you're awake to feel it.

 

[csdfghjjk_user]

Yes, exactly! If I wake up I'd prob just resurface.

I have not tried hyperventilating yet, but obv it's the first step to get it right. It feels a little like there are too many variables. I have never blacked out, not even with alcohol.

 

[madcowz]

It's on my plan to try it out, I'll do it tonight and let u know how it goes!

 

[RoseGirl]

It's on my plan to try it out, I'll do it tonight and let u know how it goes!

Or not depending on how successful u r?

 

[madcowz]

Or not depending on how successful u r?

LOL yes

 

[Intoxicated]

I dunno about successful attempts but I tried testing out blacking out by hyperventilating for like 5-10 minutes straight for a full hour and each time I could just not get it right for some reason, got dizzy but never blacked out.

Producing the blackout by hyperventilation is not how the SWB method is supposed to work. In the ideal scenario, the blackout occurs when you hold your breath long enough to induce hypoxia sufficient for fainting, without feeling strong urge to breathe. Hyperventilation helps you to hold your breath without the urge to breathe longer than usually, but the extended time of comfortable breath holding often remains insufficient for achieving loss of consciousness nevertheless.

 

[csdfghjjk_user]

So that's why this method doesn't work? Bc you could make yourself pass out from hyperventilating but it's not the same as passing out from holding your breath and have a peaceful death?

 

[Intoxicated]

So that's why this method doesn't work? Bc you could make yourself pass out from hyperventilating but it's not the same as passing out from holding your breath and have a peaceful death?

I explained how it works in this recent discussion about SWB

Is shallow water blackout really possible in a bathtub?

This is my most preferred suicide method but I’m unsure if I need a huge body of water, or if I can do it at home.

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[csdfghjjk_user]

Thank you.

This seems v hard indeed

 

[csdfghjjk_user]

It's on my plan to try it out, I'll do it tonight and let u know how it goes!

 

[Mircea]

If anyone was successful, they wouldn't return to post about it. This will likely be how I go... technically it won't be in shallow water, but on shore none the less. If it comes down to it, a weight and water above head level would be involved so failure isn't an option: The question is how much one can reduce the number of seconds in which they have to deal with a strong urge to breathe and likely swallow salt water through the nose while attempting to do so.



Best I can offer is this method which I'm practicing periodically... for a few reasons, let's just say it's something I want to master. Even the Wim Hof Method won't induce a blackout, but a few times it got me close enough that I couldn't sit upright even on a chair and started uncontrollably shaking a little, very brief effects that lasted a few seconds till breathing back in but it was definitely interesting.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

To me this method borders on satire due it's implausibility but not impossibility. My take on it is if you're imprisoned in a dungeon with bowl of water it may be worth a try. In grade school people played the "knockout game" where you hyperventilate and then the other person gives you a bear hug from behind and compresses your chest resulting in passing out for a short amount of time. A very short amount of time being 10-20 seconds. So with this you self-induce passing out and immediately fall into water so when your breath reflex kicks in you take in water and start drowning.

The warning in the info graph is geared toward lap swimmers and spear fishers that engage in repetitive breath holds fully submerged in water. The designation for "shallow" is misleading. Shallow for a spear fisher could be 10-20 feet. A clean transition from passing out to drowning in a bathtub sounds very unlikely. The body will thrash around for air in the same way a fish does when out of water. Maybe if someone does it on a dock and tips into water it would work but in a bathtub it will more likely end up with some lumps on your head and bruising than death.

 

[Intoxicated]

A clean transition from passing out to drowning in a bathtub sounds very unlikely. The body will thrash around for air in the same way a fish does when out of water. Maybe if someone does it on a dock and tips into water it would work but in a bathtub it will more likely end up with some lumps on your head and bruising than death.

Can you provide any evidences supporting those claims?

Drowning usually occurs in a rapid fashion and is most often silent. Individuals who thrash wildly in water while drowning are rare. In most cases, a motionless individual floating in water who rapidly disappears beneath the surface is the classic scenario.

Source:

Drowning: Clinical Management - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Note that even those cases where people "thrash wildly in water" are likely related to conscious behavior. Making any somewhat fast movements in water is not easy because of the strong resistance they inevitably meet there. Should any involuntary convulsions occur, they will be significantly dampened by water.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

Can you provide any evidences supporting those claims?

I'm not sure what you're looking for with this question. I doubt there's a scientific study on the SWB as it pertains to suicide in extremely shallow water. My experience is playing the blackout game and learning to swim.

Note that even those cases where people "thrash wildly in water" are likely related to conscious behavior. Making any somewhat fast movements in water is not easy because of the strong resistance they inevitably meet there. Should any involuntary convulsions occur, they will be significantly dampened by water.

I agree to some extent regarding thrashing. It's people that can't swim that tend to thrash around before inhaling water and sinking. But I don't think a bathtub contains a significant enough amount of water to provide the "strong resistance" for this method. In theory if a person was on their back in a bathtub and hyperventilated + passed out, head fell back into the water and their first involuntary breath was all water this may have a chance. Or if they were on their knees in the bathtub and did the same thing and fell face first it could work. But just because something could work in theory doesn't mean it will in execution. The method relies on a seamless transition from the blackout state to drowning in a depth of water that doesn't provide full submersion. Possible but not probable in my opinion. I'm not an expert and don't claim to be.

 

[Intoxicated]

I'm not sure what you're looking for with this question.

I'm looking for the basis of those wild theories about thrashing. As far as I know, the probability of moderate twitching from hypoxia is relatively high (especially when the blood oxygen saturation drops very quickly), but somewhat violent movements are rather exceptional than common.

But I don't think a bathtub contains a significant enough amount of water to provide the "strong resistance" for this method.

If you have a bathtub at your home, it's very easy to check how much effort is needed to harm yourself by hitting the walls while being submerged.

In theory if a person was on their back in a bathtub and hyperventilated + passed out, head fell back into the water and their first involuntary breath was all water this may have a chance. Or if they were on their knees in the bathtub and did the same thing and fell face first it could work.

Or the person could attach some weights to the neck to ensure reliable submersion of the head. This is not compatible with possible plans of making the death looking like an accident though.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

Or the person could attach some weights to the neck to ensure reliable submersion of the head. This is not compatible with possible plans of making the death looking like an accident though.

I guess my doubts about this method are in it's assumption that the hyperventilation +blackout +drowning process is as seamless as as being fully submerged and hypoxic due to exertion and then drawing in a deep breath after an extended breath hold. I think the breathing mechanics differ. I thin the method would work better if one fell into a lake or off a boat.

 

[Eudaimonic]

I guess my doubts about this method are in it's assumption that the hyperventilation +blackout +drowning process is as seamless as as being fully submerged and hypoxic due to exertion and then drawing in a deep breath after an extended breath hold. I think the breathing mechanics differ. I thin the method would work better if one fell into a lake or off a boat.

What failure points do you see with this method, exactly? What about using N2O to induce hypoxic unconsciousness?

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

What failure points do you see with this method, exactly? What about using N2O to induce hypoxic unconsciousness?

The failure point see is the between the blackout and submerged breath draw. You don't stop breathing when you faint like that nor do people gasp for air. The swimmers version of SWB is that they're already hypoxic and under water so the lungs will reflexively take a deep draw. With the CTB version of SWB, I think the person would take a normal and somewhat shallow breath and immediately start chocking and coughing kicking in survival movements.

 

[Eudaimonic]

The failure point see is the between the blackout and submerged breath draw. You don't stop breathing when you faint like that nor do people gasp for air. The swimmers version of SWB is that they're already hypoxic and under water so the lungs will reflexively take a deep draw. With the CTB version of SWB, I think the person would take a normal and somewhat shallow breath and immediately start chocking and coughing kicking in survival movements.

So, the concern is that the person will thrash so wildly that they will no longer be submerged even if the head/neck are weighed down and the tub is full? What makes you think that are going to thrash around even if they are unconscious, especially if the hypercapnic alarm is not triggered?

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

So, the concern is that the person will thrash so wildly that they will no longer be submerged even if the head/neck are weighed down and the tub is full?

No I don't think thrashing around is that big a deal. This is the third time I'm saying this, I don't believe the seamless transition from the blackout state to full drowning is as easy or likely as people expect. If that transition isn't 100% seamless a person will probably wake up and make movements that abort the attempt. Tying weights to ones head, maneuvering around in a bathtub and hyperventilating sounds like a Rube Goldberg machine. Sure it can work but that doesn't mean it will. The big difference even with weights you're starting out of water which is a fundamental difference with the swimmers version of SWB.

 

[Intoxicated]

No I don't think thrashing around is that big a deal. This is the third time I'm saying this, I don't believe the seamless transition from the blackout state to full drowning is as easy or likely as people expect. If that transition isn't 100% seamless a person will probably wake up and make movements that abort the attempt.

How do you imagine waking up out of hypoxic unconsciousness? It's like the brain thinks "hm, 65% SaO2 is too low, I should shut down right now", then switches consciousness off, and then a few moments later concludes "oh, well, on the other hand, the currently remaining 60% SaO2 should actually be enough for staying awake, so I'll wake up and consciously process WTF is going on here"?

Note also that dividing the brain states into conscious and unconscious in this case would be oversimplified. There is a clearly distinguishable intermediate state between the two, with diminishing control over your muscles when partial consciousness approaches unconsciousness closely. After some point, you may keep some awareness of the ongoing situation, but your judgement is not as clear as in full consciousness and you feel like your body doesn't belong to you anymore. You lose the sense of gravity and feedback from your arms and legs. If you somehow return to this state from full unconsciousness, facing with any somewhat serious troubles seems unlikely. Regaining a greater degree of consciousness along with restored motoric functions would likely require elevation of the SaO2 level, since these aspects of brain functionality seem to be physically dependent on availability of oxygen rather than some arbitrary choice of the brain to function properly or not in case of insufficient oxygen supply.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

How do you imagine waking up out of hypoxic unconsciousness? It's like the brain thinks "hm, 65% SaO2 is too low, I should shut down right now", then switches consciousness off, and then a few moments later concludes "oh, well, on the other hand, the currently remaining 60% SaO2 should actually be enough for staying awake, so I'll wake up and consciously process WTF is going on here"?

Note also that dividing the brain states into conscious and unconscious in this case would be oversimplified. There is a clearly distinguishable intermediate state between the two, with diminishing control over your muscles when partial consciousness approaches unconsciousness closely. After some point, you may keep some awareness of the ongoing situation, but your judgement is not as clear as in full consciousness and you feel like your body doesn't belong to you anymore. You lose the sense of gravity and feedback from your arms and legs. If you somehow return to this state from full unconsciousness, facing with any somewhat serious troubles seems unlikely. Regaining a greater degree of consciousness along with restored motoric functions would likely require elevation of the SaO2 level, since these aspects of brain functionality seem to be physically dependent on availability of oxygen rather than some arbitrary choice of the brain to function properly or not in case of insufficient oxygen supply.

I never said there was a binary either/or state between consciousness/unconsciousness. I said a seamless transition which I think is self-evidently not guaranteed. To me it's a meme method akin to a child holding their breath so their parent gives them a candy bar. You've given this more theoretical and scientific thought than most. If you believe it's plausible, that's fine too.

 

[Intoxicated]

I guess, more than 95% of all attempts that do not involve consuming auxiliary substances will fail simply due to unbearable urge to breathe. Some attempts may be aborted in the stage of impaired judgment, when clear understanding of the CTB plan is lost. Survival after successful fainting in water is the least probable outcome in my opinion.

 

[Eudaimonic]

No I don't think thrashing around is that big a deal. This is the third time I'm saying this, I don't believe the seamless transition from the blackout state to full drowning is as easy or likely as people expect. If that transition isn't 100% seamless a person will probably wake up and make movements that abort the attempt. Tying weights to ones head, maneuvering around in a bathtub and hyperventilating sounds like a Rube Goldberg machine. Sure it can work but that doesn't mean it will. The big difference even with weights you're starting out of water which is a fundamental difference with the swimmers version of SWB.

Okay, I understand your objection better now. This used to concern me, but then I realized that even though this method (with N2O) is not identical to SWB, it closely approximates it. The key difference between this method and SWB is the time spent in an acutely hypoxic state. It's more gradual vs more sudden with this. The hyperventilation is intended to reduce CO2 so that you can hold your breath for longer without discomfort, and also to a lesser extent to ensure that the brain is more hypoxic when you faint (i.e., that is caused by hypoxia rather than CO2 buildup).

Your concern is definitely valid if you are not first inducing cerebral hypoxia and just relying on a BP drop or smth to induce unconsciousness, which could reverse quickly enough and you might lack the sedation to succeed, but I find it unlikely that the brain would recover from severe hypoxia quickly enough for one to escape from such a situation. I feel that you're overestimating the amount of O2 & alertness/awareness that would be necessary for reliable escape. Also, in a severely hypoxic state, the body will prioritize the heart and brain over other tissues, which is partially why you don't see swimmers struggling after they lose consciousness, only before.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

The key difference between this method and SWB is the time spent in an acutely hypoxic state.

A good points you've made. You appear more we read on the nuance of hypoxic states and the brain then me. All I have to go on is having played the knock out game once in high school. I was only out for maybe 10 seconds or even less. And even with that game occasionally there was a news story of someone dying by accident so it was warned against.

 

[onerousyawn]

No I don't think thrashing around is that big a deal. This is the third time I'm saying this, I don't believe the seamless transition from the blackout state to full drowning is as easy or likely as people expect. If that transition isn't 100% seamless a person will probably wake up and make movements that abort the attempt. Tying weights to ones head, maneuvering around in a bathtub and hyperventilating sounds like a Rube Goldberg machine. Sure it can work but that doesn't mean it will. The big difference even with weights you're starting out of water which is a fundamental difference with the swimmers version of SWB.

The Rube Goldberg mention sent me

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

The Rube Goldberg mention sent me

There's even a guy that flips head first into a tub in the old mouse trap game. It was impossible to get that game to work like in the commercial so maybe I'm biased lol.

 

[Eudaimonic]

A good points you've made. You appear more we read on the nuance of hypoxic states and the brain then me. All I have to go on is having played the knock out game once in high school. I was only out for maybe 10 seconds or even less. And even with that game occasionally there was a news story of someone dying by accident so it was warned against.

I mean in that case the person is not submerged, so they are still breathing O2