Discussion Understanding; Sacrifice

[sashaisalone]

I've considered making a thread dedicated to my angst and trauma regarding losing the love, safety, and belonging of my now ex girlfriend. Perhaps that will be a topic for later. I want to make this on the broader topic of trying to understand and care for people who matter to you, even providing some level of sacrifice when they are in need, and feeling like they'd do the same for you if the situation was reversed. The first body paragraph will reference a previous thread of mine that was removed by moderation, so I'll try not to be exact, but it should be apparent to how it's pertinent to the theme of this post.

So on the suicide discussion forum (perhaps this was the wrong channel), I proposed a hypothetical situation where you have a friend who is "in need" so to speak and is suicidal. You'd rather not provide them this particular help. However, if you give them what they need, their suicidality would be permanently cured and they'd go on to live a healthy normally functional life. I strongly leaned yes, but responses were mixed. Once my account has full privileges, I can perhaps PM people who are interested more of what this was. But the point was, would you be willing to do something a bit (or very) sacrificial and potentially unpleasant to help your friend because you care for them and you want them to live and be happy? I can understand how the purpose of this thread would be misconstrued, but I will say I did feel invalidated by it being removed, and like people may always just think of me as weird and unfit to belong. I have a tendency of asking weird, crude, or taboo hypotheticals because I feel like they act as good grounds to test people's priorities or their moral axioms.

Now is the part where I talk about my ex. She broke up with me because I did a bunch of irrational and impulsive things that made her feel like I was untrustworthy and a liability to be in a romantic relationship with. That, and there were a lot of communication issues on what her boundaries were and how I can fulfill her needs and respect her wishes while making sure the integrity of our relationship was solid, and that my own needs would be met. We did really truly love each other however. I'll never forget the way she looked into my eyes in a way no one else ever has before, how gentle and patient we were with each other, and how much we adored each other, and wanting to make each other feel safe, happy, and to heal from our past traumas. A large part of me wants to get back with her and learn from our mistakes. But sometimes, people can matter a lot to each other, and develop uniquely strong feelings, but they still might not be the right fit. That's a possibility too.

While I'm agnostic as to whether we should be romantic again, I know she matters a ton to me, and if she were ever in need and needed me to help or rescue her, I'd come running to her aid without reservation or hesitation. Just "Where can I find you? Will you be okay until I am able to reach you? Okay then, sit tight, I'm coming.". When I explained this to her, she said she'd basically do this for me too, with or without a romantic commitment. Also for context, this was a long distance relationship, but I went on vacation with her once, and I stayed at her place, we shared our first kiss, slept in the same bed together, and we had intimate experiences too. It was a modest inexpensive studio apartment that was conveniently located near her place of work. However, while I was staying, there was never a place where I felt more "at home". Soon after I created this account, I called her yesterday on Discord, clearly in distress, and I indicated in prior messages that I was "not okay"/"I need to hear your voice", and that I would be participating in these forums.

I sobbed my eyes out a lot. I remember clutching my arms against me and trembling and stroking myself with my thumbs to self soothe. I remember averting my gaze from the webcam lens frequently. I mentioned how I felt unseen, uncared for, and like I can't make sense of how people treat me, including her. I explained that I did not think in a factual sense that she didn't care for me, but I said that it's very hard for me to feel cared for, because I know if I was another person and I was a part of the life of Sasha (my name), I did not truly care for her, but I felt pity and guilt for not caring, I'd treat her exactly the way her ex treats her, her friends treat her, and how her family treats her. She took that personally even though I tried to explain how this doesn't mean I think she doesn't care, but it still makes me feel very invalidated none the less. I also indicated that I wished to "come home" and to know that I'm cared for and safe. She said she wasn't sure she was ready, she has her own needs and boundaries separate from me, but she does want me to be okay and happy. That activates that same feeling schema though that I feel uncared for.

If the situations were reversed, I was my ex, and Sasha was telling me what she was telling me, and I was afraid that if I didn't help her, she might die; not only would I not be hesitant about having her come visit me. I wouldn't even just say "Okay, you can come home. I just want you to be okay and be safe.". I would BEG her to please come home and that I can't promise we'll fall in love again, but romantic relationship or not, "Sasha you are so precious and special to me", and I can't stand her heart being in peril and the thought of losing her. No one has ever loved me the way she's loved me. During the honey moon phase of her crushing on me and falling for me, she would have likely done this.

In any case, it feels like no one will ever love me the way I wish I loved myself, and the way I wish I was loved during important formative years in my middle childhood. It feels like I'll always be a disappointment or a burden, and that not only will my existence will be treated as a malignance, but if I dare want to do the logical thing and end my existence that everyone seems to despise, that's an even greater malignance. I don't think our society allows vulnerability and sacrifice. I think only a society that did would allow me to thrive and to help others.

 

[Kamaainakupua]

Thank you for sharing openly, and giving us so much to think about. I read this earlier, and wanted to take some time to digest. Also, you appear to have access to additional privileges.

Once my account has full privileges, I can perhaps PM people who are interested more of what this was.

I hope you can find peace, acceptance and support here. We are here for you.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think it's a very complicated question. It's very admirable when people do sacrifice their time and resources for others. There again, it can easily become taken granted of, expected and exploited.

I also worry that someone so needful of someone else may continue to be intensely needful forever. I think there can be a tendency that if a person is consistently there for them whenever needed- that dependency may in fact grow. In the most extreme of situations- I worry it could lead to a co-dependent relationship.

I even experienced it myself for a while. I was so emotionally dependent on a friend straightening me out when I was in a mess. The more attention they gave me and, the more they helped me to feel better- the more I seemed to need them. Which of course- ended badly when they wanted to (understandably) prioritize their partner.

I used to have those same disappointed realisations in my head though. That I was willing go do more for them than they for me. That can just be the reality of the relationship though and, we have to decide whether what they give us is enough. Plus- it can change. I tend to think of friendships/ relationships as transactional. So long as both sides are benefitting- it doesn't feel like sacrifice.

I suppose problems start to appear when the balance shifts. When it's all sacrifice and little to no benefit. I think that's something to consider though- even those sacrificing may still benefit. A son/ daughter caring for its parent will hopefully still feel loved and appreciated by them. They may still enjoy talking to them.

The trouble also is when we start to get some of our needs fulfilled elsewhere. In my situation, my friend told me blank that now, her new best friend was her partner. I imagine it can happen in reverse though. People may feel more understood and more appreciated by their friends than their partner.

Sacrifice is an amazing display of love but then- it can also severely limit that other person's life. I've known children effectively give up their own lives to care for their parents. Is it necessarily good for both lives to be limited? Is that a loving action from the person suffering? That the other person also has to effectively suffer? I think it depends really on how often it happens and for how long for. Are we talking about sacrificing time now and then or- all of it?

Sacrifice pretty much alludes to something unpleasant though. I don't think- ideally we should live or be expected to live an unpleasant life. Not for an extended period anyway. Really- either with family or with a relationship that is causing us pain.

Take the example of Gordon Ramsay and his brother. His brother suffered/ suffers with a heroin addiction. Gordon Ramsay has tried multiple times over decades to try to help him but eventually, has seemingly decided to cut ties. It's awful to say it but, maybe some of us can't be helped. (Not you necessarily.) Should we expect others to help us time and time again? Is that sustainable? Is it helpful? It probably depends on the person.

From the beginning of the post though- I'm not sure I really understood what you were refering to. An action to permanently cure a person's ideation that could be unpleasant? That sounds like some kind of forced intervention.

Personally- I have issues with that. No matter how well intentioned. For one- how can you be sure it will cure their ideation? Even if you have experienced this 'treatment' for example- yourself- how can you be sure they will experience the same thing or, react in the same way?

So- for one- you are making a prediction about their future you can't possibly know- that this experience will definitely help them.

Secondly though- if you are forcing this on them- there is no respect their for their own right to choose. Maybe you do think they are too mentally compromised to understand what might help them but then- even that could be a discussion. Rather than forcing something on them.

If someone did that to me, I'd try to see it as a concerned act but, I'd be pretty angry about it. It completely by passes my right to choose. It suggests a person is questioning my mental capacity behind my back. It throws me into an experience that could be bad as well as good. If it ended up bad- I'd be furious!

To be honest, I do have a friend who is always keen to give me advice. I'm willing to listen and take it in good spirits- because I know they do it from a place of love. I also know they take their own advice so- I respect them for that.

However- why they imagine what they are suggesting hasn't already occurred to me- I really don't know. It does suggest they think I'm stupid and not able to consider my options.

Also though- they don't know what it's like to be me. I think it's all too easy to get frustrated with people because we don't understand just how difficult this thing we're suggesting they do is for them. I'm guilty of that too.

Really though- I think a person should be consulted openly about things that could help them. Not have stuff forced on them. I imagine change is far more likely to take if it was their free choice to begin with. I definitely do agree with suggesting things though.

 

[sashaisalone]

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I think it's a very complicated question. It's very admirable when people do sacrifice their time and resources for others. There again, it can easily become taken granted of, expected and exploited.

I also worry that someone so needful of someone else may continue to be intensely needful forever. I think there can be a tendency that if a person is consistently there for them whenever needed- that dependency may in fact grow. In the most extreme of situations- I worry it could lead to a co-dependent relationship.

I even experienced it myself for a while. I was so emotionally dependent on a friend straightening me out when I was in a mess. The more attention they gave me and, the more they helped me to feel better- the more I seemed to need them. Which of course- ended badly when they wanted to (understandably) prioritize their partner.

|

From the beginning of the post though- I'm not sure I really understood what you were refering to. An action to permanently cure a person's ideation that could be unpleasant? That sounds like some kind of forced intervention.

Personally- I have issues with that. No matter how well intentioned. For one- how can you be sure it will cure their ideation? Even if you have experienced this 'treatment' for example- yourself- how can you be sure they will experience the same thing or, react in the same way?

So- for one- you are making a prediction about their future you can't possibly know- that this experience will definitely help them.

|

Yeah, so she felt the same amount of need for my love and to love me that I felt for her last November. I even memed and joked about how it's "soy" to be like "noooo you can't be codependenterino! Needing someone is le bad!" and she loved my meme. While there's inherent vulnerabilities in codependence, people treat it like the highest tier of "toxicity" and that nothing is worse than it. Okay? I might already be dead if she didn't slide into my DMs and admit she had a dream about me and was crushing on me. I was hanging on by a thread when she found me.

When it comes to sacrifice and emergency intervention, these are things you do to respond to acute problems. However, outside of that, it is good, especially if you're in a loving but codependent relationship, to try and actively heal, branch out and have stable friendships, and help them to be a better version of themselves. If a codependent relationship is purely stagnant and the desperation never goes away, there's some other work you two should have been doing that you're not.

As for the hypothetical, I think I can take PMs from randos? I'll check my settings to be sure. But if you wanna know, feel free to PM request me, I'll tell you what the hypothetical was, and it directly states that this is not about building up escalating dependency but instead do one thing that sets them straight long term.

 

[HopelessScientist]

I'd help any of my friends and exes if it was urgent, yes. 100%

We need more kind, caring people.

However, if there are constant crises, constant issues, it makes sense to create boundaries. With my partner, I can tell them how I am doing, but I never keep them up late, I do not talk about suicide-plans, etc. You cannot give 100% of yourself to someone, you cannot exhaust yourself so much that you're unable to help anymore.

Likewise, even if someone (like my close friend) offers to extend themselves, I save it for when I need it. When it was a worknight, and my friend wanted to be there for me, I had the boundary that I will not continue to talk to them after 1am.

I feel like it is important to look after those taking care of us, and to ensure we're taking care of ourselves too.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yeah, so she felt the same amount of need for my love and to love me that I felt for her last November. I even memed and joked about how it's "soy" to be like "noooo you can't be codependenterino! Needing someone is le bad!" and she loved my meme. While there's inherent vulnerabilities in codependence, people treat it like the highest tier of "toxicity" and that nothing is worse than it. Okay? I might already be dead if she didn't slide into my DMs and admit she had a dream about me and was crushing on me. I was hanging on by a thread when she found me.

When it comes to sacrifice and emergency intervention, these are things you do to respond to acute problems. However, outside of that, it is good, especially if you're in a loving but codependent relationship, to try and actively heal, branch out and have stable friendships, and help them to be a better version of themselves. If a codependent relationship is purely stagnant and the desperation never goes away, there's some other work you two should have been doing that you're not.

As for the hypothetical, I think I can take PMs from randos? I'll check my settings to be sure. But if you wanna know, feel free to PM request me, I'll tell you what the hypothetical was, and it directly states that this is not about building up escalating dependency but instead do one thing that sets them straight long term.

I guess that's the thing though. Co-dependency is probably fine the whole time it is reciprocal and not exploitative in a controlling way. But then- it puts the person most in need of support in a hugely vulnerable position if the relationship does eventually break down, if the other person dies etc.

I suppose personally, even after my loss of friendship experience- I realised that I didn't want to be that vulnerable again. Which- in a way leads to something worse- being more shut- off to people. Still, I've just found it keeps me calmer personally. Even when the friendship was good, I didn't always feel good because I knew I was overburdening her yet- the need to do so was so intense. Since accepting I was on my own more, I managed to start sorting out my own emotional mess. Rather than going round and around in circles with my (very patient) friend.

That's me though. We all have to follow what suits our character best.

Thank you for the DM offer. It may be useful for someone going through this but, I'm pretty isolated now. I don't have all that many friendships at all in regular contact. (Which obviously isn't healthy either!)

I imagine co-dependency has a bad name more when one person is vulnerable and the other person exploits that vulnerability to control them. I'm not so certain that being very close/ dependent on someone is so toxic- so long as they are happy in that situation and both are leading the lives they want.