How would the world look like if the dark triad personality types would not exist?

[noname223]

First, we have to spell it out what the dark triad is.

Dark triad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The dark triad is a psychological theory of personality, first published by Delroy L. Paulhus and Kevin M. Williams in 2002,[1] that describes three notably offensive but non-pathological personality types: Machiavellianism, sub-clinical narcissism, and sub-clinical psychopathy.[2][3][4][5] Each of these personality types is called dark because each is considered to contain malevolent qualities.[2][6][7][8]

All three dark triad traits are conceptually distinct although empirical evidence shows them to be overlapping. They are associated with a callous–manipulative interpersonal style.[9]

Narcissism is characterized by grandiosity, pride, egotism, and a lack of empathy.[10]
Machiavellianism is characterized by manipulativeness, indifference to morality, lack of empathy, and a calculated focus on self-interest.[11][12]
Psychopathy is characterized by continuous antisocial behavior, impulsivity, selfishness, callous and unemotional traits (CU),[13] and remorselessness.


High scores in these traits have been found to statistically increase a person's likelihood to commit crimes, cause social distress, and create severe problems for organizations, especially if they are in leadership positions.[15] They also tend to be less compassionate, agreeable, empathetic, and satisfied with their lives, and less likely to believe they and others are good.[16] However, the same traits are also associated with some positive outcomes, such as mental toughness and being more likely to embrace challenges.[17]

A factor analysis found that among the big five personality traits, low agreeableness is the strongest correlate of the dark triad, while neuroticism and a lack of conscientiousness were associated with some of the dark triad members.[12] Research indicates that there is a consistent association between changes in agreeableness and the dark triad traits over the course of an individual's life

I am not sure under which premises the question is posed. To a certain degree many people have to a lesser degree such personality traits. My question is rather meant in the way if extreme cases of the dark triad would not be a thing.

I think many extremely powerful people show dark triade personality types. Here comes an interesting question. Do you think there extremely high skilled psychopaths who bully their way to the top. Abuse and humiliate all the people around them and who are feared by most people they know personally. But their overall impact on the society is still a net positive? I am not sure. I imagine someone like Bill Gates. He has some Epstein connections. I don't know whether he is a psychopath but I could imagine people who are extremely toxic towards others enjoy being seen as messiah. And because of this they found charities that actually contribute to improving the world. I am not sure whether Bill Gates's legacy is an overall net positive for the world. There are pros and cons for that. Billionaires do a lot of harm to this planet but actually I appreciate some initiatives. Even though, I completely reject the notion that altruism was part of the motivation.

There was a time where the Silicon Valley tried to portray itself as something genuinely good for liberal societies. Of course this was always a lie. But at least they tried to abide to certain standards.

But I think I will choose a different path for this thread. I think being a politician is in most cases a horrible job. It ruins your health, it ruins your private life, women don't fulfil their wish to get children becaue of this, deep fake nudes of you on the internet, your children might be bullied because of your job. Though, power hungry people cannot get enough. Dark triad people are attracted to such positions and because of how their psyche functions they are willing to do the necessary sacrifices. If we all were purely altruistic and peace loving would anyone of us willing to take this job. I get the feeling only psychopaths are willing to do that. Maybe the job would not be as hard but I don't know. I rather think the extreme work load is already enough to ruin one's health and private life. Maybe our system was less efficient if these types of people would not exist. On the other hand maybe the system wasn't as corrupt and prone to inequality. But are dark triad personality types really the driver of inequality.?I have the feeling human nature in general tends to generate inequality. (weak argument)I could go on. It isn't sophisticated. It isn't thought through. Just some food for thought.

What do you think? I think this thread isn't particular good. But I will post it anyway.

 

[DarkRange55]

What about the dark tetrad

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/dark-tetrad

 

[Pluto]

 

[DarkRange55]

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Narcissism is characterized by grandiosity, pride, egotism, and a lack of empathy.[10]
Machiavellianism is characterized by manipulativeness, indifference to morality, lack of empathy, and a calculated focus on self-interest.[11][12]
Psychopathy is characterized by continuous antisocial behavior, impulsivity, selfishness, callous and unemotional traits (CU),[13] and remorselessness.

I've always found this interesting because it sort of implies that clinical narcissists are better than subclinical.

If you actually look at what the DSM says about NPD aside from the page with the criteria, it states that most narcissists do in fact have empathy. They struggle with affective empathy (and I say struggle on purpose, because people don't understand that "lacking" ≠ "COMPLETELY lacking")

Considering that empathy issues often exist in people with C-PTSD, autism (more commonly cognitive or compassionate than affective), etc, it isn't an evil trait inherently. It's just kinda funny to think that real narcissists are "more moral" than subclinical "narcs" by an empathy-obsessed person's standards.


Now, generally, the theory is correct. People just misunderstand it. The idea is that all humans fall on various "Dark Triad" spectrums—these are inherently human traits, after all.

I'm still not a fan of how the theory has some of the general tendencies to stigmatize mental illness like a lot of psychology does, but the basis of it is fairly sound depending on how you look at it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

If you actually look at what the DSM says about NPD aside from the page with the criteria, it states that most narcissists do in fact have empathy. They struggle with affective empathy (and I say struggle on purpose, because people don't understand that "lacking" ≠ "COMPLETELY lacking")

I've wondered about this too. How can a narcissist get 'narcissistic supply' if they aren't aware of how the other person is affected by them? I got the impression that the person I was around (who I believe had strong traits,) seemed to enjoy the chaos and fear they created alongside the admiration they demanded. If they can't read people's emotions then- how could that work?

So- they surely must be somewhat empathetic to be able to read those emotions. They maybe just have a more unusual- maybe sadistic reaction towards them I suppose. Rather than feeling sorry for someone in distress, they seem to feel excited by it- in the case of the person I knew anyway- from what I observed that is. I can't know for sure obviously.

Maybe it's that they can observe emotions in others but not necessarily sympathise/ empathise with them. I'm guessing most people try to mirror the other person (especially in distress) when they empathise whereas a narcissist seems more keen to feed off the energy.


It's a tricky question though OP. Like you say- many of our leaders seem to have stronger dark triad traits. If we were left with people with only a few mild to medium traits, would so many people take charge? Presumably, most groups do need a leader of some sort.

I'm tempted to say life would be amazing without the really dark triad types- given my own experiences but then, I'm not sure really. What concerns me more is- I think they're becoming more useful traits to have in this world. People are literally promoted and rewarded for being effortlessly ruthless and self adoring.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

I've wondered about this too. How can a narcissist get 'narcissistic supply' if they aren't aware of how the other person is affected by them?

Narcissistic supply is kind of a misnomer, to be fair. It can be essentially the equivalent of a Borderline's "favorite person(s)" and is generally morally neutral. Narcissists cannot regulate their self esteem, and rely on the praise, love, admiration, and envy (for some) of others to regulate that. A narcissistic supply gives that praise/etc, and that isn't always a bad thing. So we don't technically need to read the other person's emotions to gain that.

However, reading someone's emotions can be useful to attain the supply they need, just like reading emotions might allow a teen to fit in in a high-school clique.

Cognitive Empathy is exactly that, reading emotions.

Affective Empathy is feeling them as a sort of "contagion." Crying in response to someone crying, feeling the grief of someone who lost family. People without Affective still feel bad for others, but they don't feel the person's pain themselves.

Compassionate Empathy is the inherent urge to help fix/solve the issue—not to be confused with compassion in general, you can give compassion without having the urge, you just need to be more aware. I'm sure you've felt this yourself when tired/overwhelmed, or approached by someone you don't particularly like. I have a profile post about this, actually:

Dude, showing compassion to people online who hurt you and never apologized is so hard. I have to just take deep breaths and frown like a literal child while typing.

Literally me when someone who I don't like is going through something that no one should ever have to go through:

One note: Only having one source of narcissistic supply can breed codependency, just like having a BPD favorite person can. It's best to find whatever regulation you cannot achieve on your own from multiple seperate sources.

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What concerns me more is- I think they're becoming more useful traits to have in this world. People are literally promoted and rewarded for being effortlessly ruthless and self adoring.

When combined with lack of excessive marginalization, yeah.

It's important to take a look at these traits and imagine them on different people.

How racialized people are treated is a pretty good example. Impulsivity or emotionlessness in some racialized men lead them to being labeled "thugs" or "soon-to-be terrorists," while pride in racialized women lead them to be labeled a "hussy," or "fake."

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Privilege and how it can interact with Dark Traid is the issue in my opinion.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Narcissistic supply is kind of a misnomer, to be fair. It can be essentially the equivalent of a Borderline's "favorite person(s)" and is generally morally neutral. Narcissists cannot regulate their self esteem, and rely on the praise, love, admiration, and envy (for some) of others to regulate that. A narcissistic supply gives that praise/etc, and that isn't always a bad thing. So we don't technically need to read the other person's emotions to gain that.

However, reading someone's emotions can be useful to attain the supply they need, just like reading emotions might allow a teen to fit in in a high-school clique.

Cognitive Empathy is exactly that, reading emotions.

Affective Empathy is feeling them as a sort of "contagion." Crying in response to someone crying, feeling the grief of someone who lost family. People without Affective still feel bad for others, but they don't feel the person's pain themselves.

Compassionate Empathy is the inherent urge to help fix/solve the issue—not to be confused with compassion in general, you can give compassion without having the urge, you just need to be more aware. I'm sure you've felt this yourself when tired/overwhelmed, or approached by someone you don't particularly like. I have a profile post about this, actually:


One note: Only having one source of narcissistic supply can breed codependency, just like having a BPD favorite person can. It's best to find whatever regulation you cannot achieve on your own from multiple seperate sources.

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When combined with lack of excessive marginalization, yeah.

It's important to take a look at these traits and imagine them on different people.

How racialized people are treated is a pretty good example. Impulsivity or emotionlessness in some racialized men lead them to being labeled "thugs" or "soon-to-be terrorists," while pride in racialized women lead them to be labeled a "hussy," or "fake."

[Hidden content]


Privilege and how it can interact with Dark Traid is the issue in my opinion.

That makes sense and sure- my empathy tends to go up and down according to what's going on for me. Sometimes I will literally cry if I see someone else cry. Especially if I can empathise with the reason. That also has a selfish element of course. It's probably because we are tapping into pain we remember experiencing ourselves, that we can feel like we sympathise.

Other times, I'm so fixated on my own problems, I struggle to be as understanding towards others. Like you describe- I'll try to make the appropriate response. I'll usually try to feel genuine empathy too but sometimes, I'm more numb to truly feel what I imagine they are feeling.

But, this is kind of different though. Not just the need to be admired and lap up compliments. I've noticed some people love drama. Maybe we all do to an extent. Reality TV seems full of it! I'm hooked on 'The Traitors' at the moment. That's full of people feeling uncomfortable.

This was more than that though. This person seemed to actually create drama to watch the chaos unfold. Partly because they played the victim role and lapped up the attention that brought. But, I think they enjoyed the damage they did to others too. That's not in any way neutral! That's incredibly manipulative. I suppose I would actually go so far as to call it evil. They do realise they are unjustly pulverizing another person's character. Even if they are doing it because they so desperately need attention- they are destroying someone else in the process. I'd say that was dark.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

This was more than that though. This person seemed to actually create drama to watch the chaos unfold. Partly because they played the victim role and lapped up the attention that brought. But, I think they enjoyed the damage they did to others too. That's not in any way neutral! That's incredibly manipulative. I suppose I would actually go so far as to call it evil. They do realise they are unjustly pulverizing another person's character. Even if they are doing it because they so desperately need attention- they are destroying someone else in the process. I'd say that was dark.

Yeah, that's definitely less of a narcissist-only thing and more of a thing related to multiple issues. I've only done stuff similar to that in my life when I'm extremely derealized and borderline psychotic due to other factors—it's a type of chronic boredom where you start to think of humans around you as fictional.

Some parts of it could be attributed to narcissism, like if they swooped in to save the day, for instance. But otherwise, most narcissists avoid negative feelings directed towards them during drama (to the point that non-self-aware narcs have to delude themselves into thinking that the hatred directed at them is due to envy or them being "special," Histronics are usually the ones that like negative attention, not narcs).

I find that narcissists who want to be feared tend to have more anger issues or control issues than anything, the "I feared people my life, now it's my turn" thing that plenty of trauma survivors have, PD or not. So basically, a consequence of the same thing that caused the NPD—but not the NPD itself. Chances are that those particular actions are due to other issues that person has versus only their potential NPD.

 

[denali]

This subject is something i am very passionate about and would love to answer any more questions that come my way. I could come back and add better sources write out my sentences better and reword but frankly I'm not in grad school anymore and idgaf. this was wrote in about 10 minutes very hastily because instead of writing this i should be driving to my therapist lmao but whatever ill just lie and say i hit traffic or something.

I am diagnosed with ASPD from the PCL-R or Psychopathy in layman's terms and have noticed slightly sadistic tendencies in myself although that being said I really don't want to go to prison so I rarely act on them. But my perspective is vastly different than others on this subject as I have noticed from talking to my therapist, I honestly think the emotional detachment is at some level of gift and makes me better than the average person. although I back to the crux of the question. I don't think you would see any major differences in the world people in history you might see as psychopaths weren't IE Hitler, stalin, polpot, mao, and khan. each of these individuals had a much greater effect on the world stage than your average psychopath or narcist will mostly because we are kind of a rare breed. Modern studies say about 1% of men and 0.3% of women [1]. Meaning you have probably met one although you would never know it. (talking about psychopaths so much because i know the most about them TBH) wasnt able to find an exact source for this statement I think i heard it on huberman a few years ago but about 1 in 1000 crimes a psychopath commits are prosecuted " there is also evidence that psychopaths are able to influence the system to either receive reduced sentences or appeal their sentences to a higher court." [2]. Also didint spend enough time resarching to find a source for this but if you think about how different levels of intelligence are spread amoung the general population then its kinda a no brainer but theres a lot of really fucking dumb psychopaths who get caught for really stupid shit that doesnt make sense to me and theres a lot of really smart psychopaths who assimilate into life and you would never know because for whatever reason. I am the second category yea it fucking sucks but hey its better than prision. (also might be why im a tad suicidal lol)


(please dont judge my sources too much not the best bibliography i have ever wrote lol)
[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/psychopathy?msockid=09a6019fedcb62a71010152eec7163c7
[2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...nals?msockid=09a6019fedcb62a71010152eec7163c7

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yeah, that's definitely less of a narcissist-only thing and more of a thing related to multiple issues. I've only done stuff similar to that in my life when I'm extremely derealized and borderline psychotic due to other factors—it's a type of chronic boredom where you start to think of humans around you as fictional.

Some parts of it could be attributed to narcissism, like if they swooped in to save the day, for instance. But otherwise, most narcissists avoid negative feelings directed towards them during drama (to the point that non-self-aware narcs have to delude themselves into thinking that the hatred directed at them is due to envy or them being "special," Histronics are usually the ones that like negative attention, not narcs).

I find that narcissists who want to be feared tend to have more anger issues or control issues than anything, the "I feared people my life, now it's my turn" thing that plenty of trauma survivors have, PD or not. So basically, a consequence of the same thing that caused the NPD—but not the NPD itself. Chances are that those particular actions are due to other issues that person has versus only their potential NPD.

It was more of a: This person (me) has done all these awful (and totally made up) things to me. Pity me! And- it worked on some people- not all thankfully. So- they didn't paint themselves as a villain or scary. They painted themselves as the vulnerable victim and me as the perpetrator.

I wondered for a while if they were actually delusional but- I doubt it. They were strategic about it. They would actually do something bad to me, and then- blame me for something even worse as a smoke screen!

They would change around me. Although, sometimes they were maybe arrogant enough to believe they could bully me openly and everyone would go along with it. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't- which is probably why later on they pretty much exclusively focussed on blaming me for stuff with the bullying part under their breath. So- they kind of changed their tactics to create the maximum affect/ damage- with less chance of it rebounding on them.

Of course, it did backfire now and then. I was lucky enough to have some close friends who stood by me from the start. We (unsurprisingly) had a half joking, half serious suicide pact at the time. They were going through some shit too.

But, I've heard other stories here of people going through things like this. Where an ex or something starts spreading totally untrue rumours about them to gain attention and sympathy.

Whether it's purely a narcissistic trait, I don't know but, it's often mentioned in the pop psychology descriptions of it. Both playing the victim, triangulation and getting 'flying monkeys' on side to both spread malicious and false gossip and to bully the person they have it in for.

I'm not a psychologist though so, who knows. It did give me a weird sense of validation to see their behaviours described though. Some of them were utterly crazy and here- they had some sort of reasoning behind them.

I did it once I remember- embellished a story (not about them.) Not that it's an excuse but, I think I was mimicking them. I remember it felt so wrong afterwards. We were children at that time and for the bulk of all this but- they were the same right up to adulthood and from what I hear now and then, they're still at it with other poor souls.