Venting Are we overlooking velocity? guns, grain, caliber, speed

[wheelsonthebus]

This is not a guide; I am not asserting anything; this is me spiraling about grain.

I am huffing that copium.

So I've been reading a lot of discussion on SaSu and contributing in my own little way as well to the ongoing discussion around firearms and damage. Most people's goals with using a firearm to CTB, as I understand it, is to die quickly, reliably, and with minimal suffering. The issue is that a lot of literature and reporting online overlooks whether or not the "victim" died immediately or not - did they die before they hit the ground or did they slowly bleed out? Funnily enough, if they were forthcoming about these factors, they would probably contribute to more effectively scaring people off of using guns to commit. This of course isn't my goal, so I'm going to be using this information for the opposite approach.

I'm guilty of it: overlooking grain and velocity. Because I never had to worry about it before because when I worked with guns the ammo was provided. I wasn't stopping by Academy Outdoors like "hi 7.62 x51mm NATO pls :3 do u take cash"

To be fair, angle of entry (where you shoot yourself) is probably the most important thing. But secondary to that, we seem to prioritize bigger calibers over anything and hold shotguns as the gold standard. First, a lot of people are not going to have access to a long barrel weapon. Maybe they have to make do with the firearm they already have. Maybe they will not be able to reliably hide or transport a shotgun or rifle. But also, people "survive" shotgun wounds for minutes even until succumbing.

So let's talk about grain (gr).
The definition: grain is the weight of the projectile. 1 grain = 1/7000 lb = 0.0648 g.
Heavier bullets (higher grain):
- Lower velocity (given same cartridge and powder capacity)
- Higher momentum
- Tend to penetrate more consistently (they push deeper through ballistic gel)
- With JHP (hollow point, which you'd better be using) they expand more slowly because velocity drives the expansion.
Lighter bullets (lower grain):
- Higher velocity
- More sensitive to drag/they slow down faster in the gel
- JHP tends to expand more aggressively and quickly if velocity is high

Spoiler: my insanity on grain, for your consideration

Some common ranges:
9mm: ~115-147 gr
.40 S&W: ~155-180 gr
.45 ACP: ~185-230 gr
Let's talk stats:
SaSu may have you believe that the god almighty of SIGSWH (self inflicted gunshot wound to the head, say it 3 times fast) is a shotgun. End of story. Worry about nothing else.
A lot of data suggests otherwise. Here is one example for your consideration:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29855212/
Handguns
In the linked Journal of Neurotrauma study, handguns led to the highest mortality rates (58.7%).

Hunting rifles
48.7%.

Shotguns
They found that shotguns had the lowest mortality rates among firearms (31.9%).
Shotgun patients spent longer time in the ICU, with an average increase of 3.5 days, and in the hospital, with an average increase of 4.2 days.

Rifles
"Rifles were found to be the most lethal weapons of all, and patients of this type of injury are more likely to die before arriving to emergency rooms."

Study context
"For assaultive gunshot wounds to the head, there was a mortality rate of 41%. However, this increases to 74% if the wound is an isolated head wound compared to 52% for non-isolated.

Researchers believe that this can be attributed to the fact that isolated head wounds, which are often a result of suicide/self-inflicted injury, are performed at close-range in comparison to non-isolated head wounds that typically involve being shot multiple times from a farther distance. Furthermore, a Glasgow Coma Scale score of 3 to 8 was found to be associated with the highest risk of death as well as prolonged ICU length of stay."
​

(I assume we don't want at ICU stay, because ICU stays are for alive people.)

Hmmm. This study, like many, forces us to extrapolate. Are shotguns so weak because all of the patients in the study shot by them were assaulted from some amount of distance? Or is it that there are other factors involved that would better indicate the lethality of different rounds that aren't often discussed?

Some facts:
There is a positive relationship between grain (weight) and muzzle energy. More propellant = bigger boom.
There is an inverse relationship between grain (weight) and velocity.
(This is the simplest part of rocket science. It's all downhill from there.)

http://www.gwicu.com/Assets/Articles/Ballistics.pdf This paper includes additional tables for other types of weapons, including shotguns.



There is a big ol hole in the available published research when it comes to how quickly one dies from a SIGSWH. There is also, however, plenty of anecdotal information available around the net about those who have witnessed such suicides. People do not always die immediately, but survive in agony for minutes.

​

If the goal is to shoot oneself in the head point blank, get all the hot gasses in there for maximum boiling, have all the expansion from the round for maximum blending, and ultimately turn the brain into porridge over a relatively short period of time of a second, I'm afraid that the weight and the speed of the round may indeed be relevant.

Two most popular 9mm self defense ammo, compared:

Bullet grain	Velocity	Energy on impact
124	1150 ft/s	364 ft/lb
147	1000 ft/s	326 ft/lb

So bigger ≠ better?

Ugh!

So what does this all mean for point-blank shootin'? I'm glad you're asking! I'm asking, too! I don't fucking know! Am I overthinking this? I'd like to think so, but the anecdotes and neurosurgeons I know make me think that most folks that shoot themselves in the head weren't thinking enough!

I would assume that energy and velocity at muzzle (initial position) and on impact (final position) should be considered equal when shooting point blank. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This is, after all, why we shoot against the skin. That and the transfer of the gasses themselves.

So, what do we think? If restricted in choice of firearm do we think lower grain might be the answer?

But, what about barrel length? What about exit holes? Is it better for the bullet not to exit because of potential ricocheting and compounding damage? Better not to exit because of the concentration of energy dispersal being localized inside the brain? Better TO exit because of implied high velocity, maximizing hollow point expansion? What about.....​

​

This is why I hated physics class. Too many variables, too little time. But, hey, something to think about in the meantime if overthinking is your hobby like it is mine! Cheers!

Tbh I'm thinking about going for a 454 Cassull. It's a revolver. For big game. You read that correctly. Point blank I do not expect to have much of a skull left. However, high or low grain? Idk. Shorter or longer barrel? IDK! Does it even matter at that point? lol no not at all haha there won't be a head.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

imo no human will survive a bullet travelling 3000 feet per second hit on the head. that's almost a kilometer per second. some of the rifles shown below do have that velocity. imo any grain above 30 going 3000 feet per second will explode the head.

imo the rifle method is 99.9% .

if you can get a rifle and ammunition that can fire a bullet 3000 feet per second

and if you practice a lot dry firing

no human or other land animal can survive a bullet going 3000 feet per second hitting the skull . it's just physics :

imagine a peice of metal travelling at almost 1 kilometer per second. what can survive that? imo nothing.

a bullet traveling at 99.99% the speed of light will do what you think? it will destroy the Earth.

here is an answer from an ai and i didn't ask google ai cause it's the most censored and probably might even report me. ai says even a grazing shot is 0% survivable

A 150-grain bullet traveling at 3000 fps (feet per second) — roughly 914 m/s — is a high-velocity rifle round (e.g., .308 Win, .270 Win, or 7mm-08 in hot loads). would be the very upper end of standard rifle velocities; true hyper-velocity starts closer to 4000+ fps).

For any land mammal (deer, elk, hog, bear, human, etc.), the likelihood of surviving a direct **brain hit** with this bullet is effectively **zero**.

### Why survival is essentially impossible:
- **Energy transfer**: A 150 gr bullet at 3000 fps carries ~3000–3200 ft-lbs of muzzle energy (depending on exact load). Even after some range loss, a head/brain shot still delivers 2000+ ft-lbs.
- **Hydrostatic shock & cavitation**: At these velocities, the temporary wound cavity in brain tissue is massive (often 10–20+ inches in diameter). Brain tissue is extremely fragile and does not tolerate this level of disruption.
- **Bullet construction matters slightly**:
- Expanding/soft-point/hollow-point (most hunting bullets): explodes inside the skull → immediate destruction of brainstem/cerebellum.
- Solid/FMJ (rarely used on game): still tumbles and fragments heavily in brain matter → same result.
- Documented real-world outcomes:
- Deer, elk, hogs, bears, African plains game, and humans all drop instantly or within 1–2 seconds on confirmed CNS (brain/spine) hits with this class of round.
- There are **no credible, verified cases** of a mammal surviving a direct brain shot with a centerfire rifle bullet of this power and velocity once the projectile fully penetrates the brain.

### Extremely rare exceptions (still not "survival" in any meaningful sense):
- Grazing hits that only clip the skull or scalp (not penetrating brain).
- Shots that pass through the jaw, nasal cavity, or neck without touching the brain.
- Very tough animals (e.g., large bears) with thick skulls that deflect or slow a marginal hit — but even then, if the brain is actually struck, the animal dies.

### Bottom line:
If the bullet **directly impacts and penetrates the brain** of any land mammal with a 150-grain bullet at ~3000 fps, survival probability is **< 0.1%** — essentially zero for all practical purposes. The animal is dead before it hits the ground.
-----------
For a 150-grain rifle bullet striking the head at **3000 fps impact velocity** (i.e., the bullet is still moving 914 m/s when it hits the skull), the survival chance for **any land mammal** — from a rabbit to a grizzly bear — is effectively **zero** if the bullet actually penetrates and disrupts the brain.

### Why the outcome is the same or even more certain than at muzzle velocity:
- 3000 fps at impact means the shot was taken at very close range (under 100–150 yards for most .30-caliber cartridges), so the bullet has lost almost no energy or velocity.
- Kinetic energy at impact: ≈ 3000–3200 ft-lbs (exactly the same as muzzle energy for many factory loads).
- At this velocity, even heavily constructed bullets (CUP solids, FMJ, bonded hunting bullets) create massive temporary cavitation and hydrostatic shock in brain tissue. The brain is literally liquefied or shredded in a volume many times larger than the bullet diameter.
- The skull offers almost no meaningful resistance at this speed and energy; the bullet punches through and transfers virtually all its energy inside the cranium.

### Real-world data (hunting, military, forensic):
- Thousands of documented one-shot kills on deer, elk, moose, feral hogs, black bears, brown bears, African game (including buffalo and elephant when using proper tough bullets) with similar or lesser loads at close range — all instant or near-instant deaths on brain hits.
- Human forensic data (high-velocity rifle wounds to the head) show 100 % immediate incapacitation and 99+ % mortality when the brain is traversed.
- There are **zero verified cases** of any mammal (including the toughest — grizzly, cape buffalo, hippo on land) surviving a direct brain hit from a 150-grain bullet at 3000 fps impact velocity.

### Bottom line (unchanged from the previous answer, but even more emphatic):
If the bullet enters the braincase and the brain itself is struck at 3000 fps with a 150-grain projectile, survival probability is **0 %** for any land animal that has ever existed. Death is instantaneous (within 0–2 seconds at most).

---- here is part of the ai answer for shotgun slugs
99+ % of all land mammals (including humans, deer, elk, black bears, African plains game) die instantly from a solid brain hit with a 1.25 oz slug at 1500 fps.

 

[Flubber]

No Table is complete without a 50 cal BMG

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Sorry. Not buying that shotguns have lowest mortality. Maybe if someone uses birdshot and not buckshot, idk. A shotgun blast in the mouth is LIGHTS OUT. If using a handgun, I'd stick with a larger caliber, and make sure I chose a good defensive bullet with "nasty" expansion capabilities that inflicts more damage.

 

[looking4partner]

imo no human will survive a bullet travelling 3000 feet per second hit on the head. that's almost a kilometer per second. some of the rifles shown below do have that velocity. imo any grain above 30 going 3000 feet per second will explode the head.

imo the rifle method is 99.9% .

if you can get a rifle and ammunition that can fire a bullet 3000 feet per second

and if you practice a lot dry firing

no human or other land animal can survive a bullet going 3000 feet per second hitting the skull . it's just physics :

imagine a peice of metal travelling at almost 1 kilometer per second. what can survive that? imo nothing.

a bullet traveling at 99.99% the speed of light will do what you think? it will destroy the Earth.

here is an answer from an ai and i didn't ask google ai cause it's the most censored and probably might even report me. ai says even a grazing shot is 0% survivable

A 150-grain bullet traveling at 3000 fps (feet per second) — roughly 914 m/s — is a high-velocity rifle round (e.g., .308 Win, .270 Win, or 7mm-08 in hot loads). would be the very upper end of standard rifle velocities; true hyper-velocity starts closer to 4000+ fps).

For any land mammal (deer, elk, hog, bear, human, etc.), the likelihood of surviving a direct **brain hit** with this bullet is effectively **zero**.

### Why survival is essentially impossible:
- **Energy transfer**: A 150 gr bullet at 3000 fps carries ~3000–3200 ft-lbs of muzzle energy (depending on exact load). Even after some range loss, a head/brain shot still delivers 2000+ ft-lbs.
- **Hydrostatic shock & cavitation**: At these velocities, the temporary wound cavity in brain tissue is massive (often 10–20+ inches in diameter). Brain tissue is extremely fragile and does not tolerate this level of disruption.
- **Bullet construction matters slightly**:
- Expanding/soft-point/hollow-point (most hunting bullets): explodes inside the skull → immediate destruction of brainstem/cerebellum.
- Solid/FMJ (rarely used on game): still tumbles and fragments heavily in brain matter → same result.
- Documented real-world outcomes:
- Deer, elk, hogs, bears, African plains game, and humans all drop instantly or within 1–2 seconds on confirmed CNS (brain/spine) hits with this class of round.
- There are **no credible, verified cases** of a mammal surviving a direct brain shot with a centerfire rifle bullet of this power and velocity once the projectile fully penetrates the brain.

### Extremely rare exceptions (still not "survival" in any meaningful sense):
- Grazing hits that only clip the skull or scalp (not penetrating brain).
- Shots that pass through the jaw, nasal cavity, or neck without touching the brain.
- Very tough animals (e.g., large bears) with thick skulls that deflect or slow a marginal hit — but even then, if the brain is actually struck, the animal dies.

### Bottom line:
If the bullet **directly impacts and penetrates the brain** of any land mammal with a 150-grain bullet at ~3000 fps, survival probability is **< 0.1%** — essentially zero for all practical purposes. The animal is dead before it hits the ground.
-----------
For a 150-grain rifle bullet striking the head at **3000 fps impact velocity** (i.e., the bullet is still moving 914 m/s when it hits the skull), the survival chance for **any land mammal** — from a rabbit to a grizzly bear — is effectively **zero** if the bullet actually penetrates and disrupts the brain.

### Why the outcome is the same or even more certain than at muzzle velocity:
- 3000 fps at impact means the shot was taken at very close range (under 100–150 yards for most .30-caliber cartridges), so the bullet has lost almost no energy or velocity.
- Kinetic energy at impact: ≈ 3000–3200 ft-lbs (exactly the same as muzzle energy for many factory loads).
- At this velocity, even heavily constructed bullets (CUP solids, FMJ, bonded hunting bullets) create massive temporary cavitation and hydrostatic shock in brain tissue. The brain is literally liquefied or shredded in a volume many times larger than the bullet diameter.
- The skull offers almost no meaningful resistance at this speed and energy; the bullet punches through and transfers virtually all its energy inside the cranium.

### Real-world data (hunting, military, forensic):
- Thousands of documented one-shot kills on deer, elk, moose, feral hogs, black bears, brown bears, African game (including buffalo and elephant when using proper tough bullets) with similar or lesser loads at close range — all instant or near-instant deaths on brain hits.
- Human forensic data (high-velocity rifle wounds to the head) show 100 % immediate incapacitation and 99+ % mortality when the brain is traversed.
- There are **zero verified cases** of any mammal (including the toughest — grizzly, cape buffalo, hippo on land) surviving a direct brain hit from a 150-grain bullet at 3000 fps impact velocity.

### Bottom line (unchanged from the previous answer, but even more emphatic):
If the bullet enters the braincase and the brain itself is struck at 3000 fps with a 150-grain projectile, survival probability is **0 %** for any land animal that has ever existed. Death is instantaneous (within 0–2 seconds at most).

---- here is part of the ai answer for shotgun slugs
99+ % of all land mammals (including humans, deer, elk, black bears, African plains game) die instantly from a solid brain hit with a 1.25 oz slug at 1500 fps.

I would like to notify everyone that no one should be trusting AI for answers to anything especially information about CTB methods/statistics/reliability.

This is because AI has hallucinations and just compiles information from all over the Internet no matter what the source is or how qualified the poster of said information is about the topic. For example, it compiles information from random redditors. Which would be very different than compiling information from a group of people with extensive firearms experience who have experience being in the military or police, etc. And even then, many police officers have no experience needing to use their guns in real-life situations which are much different than experience and factors practicing on a range no matter how much practice someone has had. I also read that many military members never used their guns to shoot at other people. (The exception was in World War II when a very high percentage of people in a certain age range did end up using their guns and shooting.) And many people also say that they have been to gun shops and disagreed with the advice the owners/salespeople were giving to newbie customers/people. But didn't say anything while the newbie was there because they didn't want to embarrass the gun shop owner or worker. And only brought up their own conflicting knowledge with what was said to the worker after the newbie had left the store. This is partly because even with experienced firearms handlers, some of the information they share is based on their own personal opinions and anecdotal experiences. And anecdotal data is not the same as scientific data/statistics which has certain guidelines to help the information be more accurate such as sample size, control group, and acknowledgment of possible implicit bias/conflict of scientists and what companies/organizations have paid, helped, and/or employed them that could affect data.

There is also the Dunning-Krueger effect. (People with the least amount of knowledge on a topic are often the most confident that they are right and their information is absolute. Even if they specialize and are trained in that topic. People who are the most knowledgeable about a topic realize how much information they still don't know and how many various different possibilities there are and how many unknown and unpredictable factors can impact the accuracy of the data and statistics about the information.)

It is best for any topic to double check what people are saying (this especially includes AI - I really hate AI being at the top of Google results now. It cannot be trusted and gives incorrect information often. Or it will link/"cite" websites as resources, none of which support the information listed in the sentence supposedly referencing them. Cite is in quotes because you cannot cite something when the information you are stating is not said in the place you are citing as a resource. This is what con artists too and that is what the current knowledge level of AI is. Even using previous pre-AI Google search results on a computer, you could at least infer how reliable the website stating the answer was based on whether it was an outdated format HTML website with weird scammy looking advertisements, a tabloid type clickbait celebrity website, personal opinion blog (less reliable & misleading headlines, personal opinion not necessarily fact but could cite reputable sources) or more official/reliable websites (such as .gov, .org, or a foundation specifically for that cause, or a research article from a scientific or medical journal, reputable newspaper article and you would also be aware of possible bias by recognizing which political direction it leans based on what you had seen it lost in the past or could Google a chart of where it would fall on the political bias/influence spectrum which there is a website categorizing many news websites into a chart based on this -including far left, left, moderate left, moderate right, right, far right, etc. And in the very middle was neutral & information based websites with the least amount of opinion & partisanship coloring the articles/content).

With AI, people are reading and double checking information and reliability of sources less when AI literally makes up information and has no system correcting that and was released before ethical guidelines were created and enforced to help prevent the exact disastrous consequences that its unchecked creation and spreading of misinformation will cause. And the majority of people are just trusting whatever AI says without confirming that the answer is even stated on not just a reputable/reliable source, but by any source that exists at all and isn't just AI sourcing a website that does not state that information on any part of the website it is citing as a source for said information/answer. I have also observed the Google AI answer literally stating the exact opposite of what the website it cited as the source said was the answer to the question. (As in, the website said, "Yes, [subject] causes [consequence.]" But the Google AI answer stated "No, [subject] does not cause [consequence.]" And AI cited the website that said "Yes" as its source for the answer "No." When the answer "No" was not stated on any part of the website page.)

And go to the sources to read the information and to research and read the studies and statistics yourself.

I am wanting to make sure that people are aware of this. Because for example, AI stated that "a grazing shot is 0% survivable." This is just not true. Shots that graze the skull are how/why many people (and animals) survived a gunshot whether it was self-inflicted or homicide attempt. Because the bullet(s) grazed their skin & skull instead of going deeper through and into the brain. Or it grazed their brain, but didn't have powerful enough of energy, the pathway/trajectory the bullet traveled wasn't in the most effective spots or didn't cause enough brain swelling & pressure confined by skull, bleeding out, or skull pieces piercing into brain and causing enough damage to kill & not just become unconscious/braindead. Btw, there are interviews with people who were in different states of braindead including coma, locked-in syndrome, and similar saying that they did have a level of awareness even if it was dreams/nightmares, internal hallucinations. And did have ability to hear what other people were saying about and to them even if it was sporadic and they couldn't respond for years to communicate that until someone they met who recognized it might be a possibility and basically acknowledged them as still being a human more than other people around them had & looked for ways that might accommodate them if they did have an ability to speak -which they would not have been able to request or get themself- had the idea to give them some type of visual typing keyboard that spoke audio. (This was locked-in syndrome.) And so I disagree with people saying if you become brain dead, it will be the same as CBT anyway. That's only if you have a family empathetic enough to pull the plug if that is what you expressed you wanted to happen if that was the result and help you to the other side.

And I'm not saying that this isn't statistically the highest success rate method. But I even found a story about someone who survived an attempt with a shotgun which I myself had thought would not be survivable. This can also be because of some unpredictable factors a bit out of people's control such as accidentally flinching. And is probably why I have (unintentionally) seen photos of a few people who basically set up engineering type systems to help prevent some of these problems and ensure they were more likely to be effective by making machines or pulley systems or similar. That's probably why those people were able to complete.

Why does it have to be so difficult

Also, I'm sorry, but how is grazing skin or scalp equivalent to "still not surviving in any sense?" There are people who have had bullets in their head and didn't even realize and went to work (although rare.) And people where the bullet only went under the skin in their head and not through the skull which barely did anything. And bullets that got stuck, but didn't do much or did cause some injury, but doctors don't remove them because it could cause more damage. And so people just live with a bullet in them the rest of their life unless it's close enough to the surface to somehow work its way out before the skin heals. And it doesn't cause problems to do that generally other than possibly causing chronic pain and whatever the effects of having a little bit of lead in you for years are.

Speaking of hunting, I have also read hunters mentioning they shot an animal in the head and it was still alive. And they needed to shoot it a few more times afterward (especially if they were a beginner hunter or using lower than a certain level of caliber.) And sometimes it was able to escape & run away wounded with a bullet in its head and even the hunter felt guilty about not being able to finish the job and watching it run away suffering & too far for them to follow/realize/keep track of/shoot at again.

And I do agree & have also read that shot placement is most important, but there is no way to 100% guarantee hitting the brainstem or correct area of the spine so that you're not just paraplegic, but definitely gone (or will be in a matter of time). Because all the vital spots in the body have anatomy protecting them such as the hard bone of many ribs around the heart and the hard skull protecting the brainstem which is also small and difficult to access in an accurate and direct way.

Another thing I wanted to say about misinformation on this website is that SN is not painless which is a message probably started by the sellers so that more people would buy it. Because I researched many of the methods and it causes seizures and severe burning and I'm pretty sure a type of choking/suffocating which is probably part of what causes the vomiting & need for anti-vomiting meds. And that's probably also why the benzo is needed for the panic caused by all of that. And it also seems unpredictable how difficult it will be to go unconscious enough early enough to hopefully not realize what is happening or feel it as much/be as aware of it.

I wish I had known that Nembutal used to be so available in my lifetime. I can't believe I've had ideation for so long and by the time it becomes active, all the more peaceful & quick methods have been banned or redesigned to not work easily at all for that purpose anymore. And I can't believe I still had some hope and held out for so long believing that I could improve only for my life & conditions to reach a level of torture that I didn't even know existed until it happened to me :( It's like I am being punished for not having done it earlier. I think I had some stupid idea that I would eventually be rewarded one day if I kept pressing on. My life has literally gotten worse in all the aspects I could have imagined. I couldn't even have predicted it would get this bad if I tried. And I am being forced to have many of my phobias happen to me because of my circumstances & conditions not giving me a choice or break from them anymore. And to miss out on even more of the life experiences that I was prevented from being able to experience for most of my life by controlling family members. I just can't believe this is my life and what it became. If I would have known what my future was, I would have attempted CBT instead of pushing through because it's like a nightmare that I couldn't have even come up with in my own even with multiple basically lifelong severe anxiety disorders.

My condition is also rare and commonly invalidated because of how unknown it is and I have already been invalidated by almost everyone around me for my entire life.

P.S. I'm pretty sure the 90% statistic is that 90% of the population who attempts using firearms completes CTB And doesn't survive. Not that an attempt with a firearm has a 90% chance of completing. I am half-awake & not sure if this makes sense anymore

I wish I had done the CO method when I was still physically capable & able to be more independent instead of convincing myself it was too complicated to figure out. And I wish that I was better at understanding what instructions mean and figuring out concepts. I also didn't remember that I will probably get severely burned by gun flash also. Fear & potential brain damage will literally make all my current symptoms that caused ideation to become active even worse than they already are. And people with TBI are more likely to have PTSD, anxiety, & depression even if they never did before. And to become suicidal even if they weren't before :(

And my family will keep me alive no matter how braindead I become if I don't complete correctly regardless of what I say or write.

And I already had ideation hundreds of times a day which has progressed to what seems like thousands of times per day. (Basically, I did not think that the frequency of chronic ideation could increase any more than the level/frequency/intensity that it was already at and had reached. But apparently, I have found out that it can.

And nothing has literal 0% survival probability :(
And the 70-90% gun CTB statistic doesn't specify if the majority of those were because of larger calibers like rifle & shotgun which I cannot access. And I already survived something with a 70% completion probability.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I would like to notify everyone that no one should be trusting AI for answers to anything especially information about CTB methods/statistics/reliability.

This is because AI has hallucinations and just compiles information from all over the Internet no matter what the source is or how qualified the poster of said information is about the topic. For example, it compiles information from random redditors. Which would be very different than compiling information from a group of people with extensive firearms experience who have experience being in the military or police, etc. And even then, many police officers have no experience needing to use their guns in real-life situations which are much different than experience and factors practicing on a range no matter how much practice someone has had. I also read that many military members never used their guns to shoot at other people. (The exception was in World War II when a very high percentage of people in a certain age range did end up using their guns and shooting.) And many people also say that they have been to gun shops and disagreed with the advice the owners/salespeople were giving to newbie customers/people. But didn't say anything while the newbie was there because they didn't want to embarrass the gun shop owner or worker. And only brought up their own conflicting knowledge with what was said to the worker after the newbie had left the store. This is partly because even with experienced firearms handlers, some of the information they share is based on their own personal opinions and anecdotal experiences. And anecdotal data is not the same as scientific data/statistics which has certain guidelines to help the information be more accurate such as sample size, control group, and acknowledgment of possible implicit bias/conflict of scientists and what companies/organizations have paid, helped, and/or employed them that could affect data.

There is also the Dunning-Krueger effect. (People with the least amount of knowledge on a topic are often the most confident that they are right and their information is absolute. Even if they specialize and are trained in that topic. People who are the most knowledgeable about a topic realize how much information they still don't know and how many various different possibilities there are and how many unknown and unpredictable factors can impact the accuracy of the data and statistics about the information.)

It is best for any topic to double check what people are saying (this especially includes AI - I really hate AI being at the top of Google results now. It cannot be trusted and gives incorrect information often. Or it will link/"cite" websites as resources, none of which support the information listed in the sentence supposedly referencing them. Cite is in quotes because you cannot cite something when the information you are stating is not said in the place you are citing as a resource. This is what con artists too and that is what the current knowledge level of AI is. Even using previous pre-AI Google search results on a computer, you could at least infer how reliable the website stating the answer was based on whether it was an outdated format HTML website with weird scammy looking advertisements, a tabloid type clickbait celebrity website, personal opinion blog (less reliable & misleading headlines, personal opinion not necessarily fact but could cite reputable sources) or more official/reliable websites (such as .gov, .org, or a foundation specifically for that cause, or a research article from a scientific or medical journal, reputable newspaper article and you would also be aware of possible bias by recognizing which political direction it leans based on what you had seen it lost in the past or could Google a chart of where it would fall on the political bias/influence spectrum which there is a website categorizing many news websites into a chart based on this -including far left, left, moderate left, moderate right, right, far right, etc. And in the very middle was neutral & information based websites with the least amount of opinion & partisanship coloring the articles/content).

With AI, people are reading and double checking information and reliability of sources less when AI literally makes up information and has no system correcting that and was released before ethical guidelines were created and enforced to help prevent the exact disastrous consequences that its unchecked creation and spreading of misinformation will cause. And the majority of people are just trusting whatever AI says without confirming that the answer is even stated on not just a reputable/reliable source, but by any source that exists at all and isn't just AI sourcing a website that does not state that information on any part of the website it is citing as a source for said information/answer. I have also observed the Google AI answer literally stating the exact opposite of what the website it cited as the source said was the answer to the question. (As in, the website said, "Yes, [subject] causes [consequence.]" But the Google AI answer stated "No, [subject] does not cause [consequence.]" And AI cited the website that said "Yes" as its source for the answer "No." When the answer "No" was not stated on any part of the website page.)

And go to the sources to read the information and to research and read the studies and statistics yourself.

I am wanting to make sure that people are aware of this. Because for example, AI stated that "a grazing shot is 0% survivable." This is just not true. Shots that graze the skull are how/why many people (and animals) survived a gunshot whether it was self-inflicted or homicide attempt. Because the bullet(s) grazed their skin & skull instead of going deeper through and into the brain. Or it grazed their brain, but didn't have powerful enough of energy, the pathway/trajectory the bullet traveled wasn't in the most effective spots or didn't cause enough brain swelling & pressure confined by skull, bleeding out, or skull pieces piercing into brain and causing enough damage to kill & not just become unconscious/braindead. Btw, there are interviews with people who were in different states of braindead including coma, locked-in syndrome, and similar saying that they did have a level of awareness even if it was dreams/nightmares, internal hallucinations. And did have ability to hear what other people were saying about and to them even if it was sporadic and they couldn't respond for years to communicate that until someone they met who recognized it might be a possibility and basically acknowledged them as still being a human more than other people around them had & looked for ways that might accommodate them if they did have an ability to speak -which they would not have been able to request or get themself- had the idea to give them some type of visual typing keyboard that spoke audio. (This was locked-in syndrome.) And so I disagree with people saying if you become brain dead, it will be the same as CBT anyway. That's only if you have a family empathetic enough to pull the plug if that is what you expressed you wanted to happen if that was the result and help you to the other side.

And I'm not saying that this isn't statistically the highest success rate method. But I even found a story about someone who survived an attempt with a shotgun which I myself had thought would not be survivable. This can also be because of some unpredictable factors a bit out of people's control such as accidentally flinching. And is probably why I have (unintentionally) seen photos of a few people who basically set up engineering type systems to help prevent some of these problems and ensure they were more likely to be effective by making machines or pulley systems or similar. That's probably why those people were able to complete.

Why does it have to be so difficult

Also, I'm sorry, but how is grazing skin or scalp equivalent to "still not surviving in any sense?" There are people who have had bullets in their head and didn't even realize and went to work (although rare.) And people where the bullet only went under the skin in their head and not through the skull which barely did anything. And bullets that got stuck, but didn't do much or did cause some injury, but doctors don't remove them because it could cause more damage. And so people just live with a bullet in them the rest of their life unless it's close enough to the surface to somehow work its way out before the skin heals. And it doesn't cause problems to do that generally other than possibly causing chronic pain and whatever the effects of having a little bit of lead in you for years are.

Speaking of hunting, I have also read hunters mentioning they shot an animal in the head and it was still alive. And they needed to shoot it a few more times afterward (especially if they were a beginner hunter or using lower than a certain level of caliber.) And sometimes it was able to escape & run away wounded with a bullet in its head and even the hunter felt guilty about not being able to finish the job and watching it run away suffering & too far for them to follow/realize/keep track of/shoot at again.

And I do agree & have also read that shot placement is most important, but there is no way to 100% guarantee hitting the brainstem or correct area of the spine so that you're not just paraplegic, but definitely gone (or will be in a matter of time). Because all the vital spots in the body have anatomy protecting them such as the hard bone of many ribs around the heart and the hard skull protecting the brainstem which is also small and difficult to access in an accurate and direct way.

Another thing I wanted to say about misinformation on this website is that SN is not painless which is a message probably started by the sellers so that more people would buy it. Because I researched many of the methods and it causes seizures and severe burning and I'm pretty sure a type of choking/suffocating which is probably part of what causes the vomiting & need for anti-vomiting meds. And that's probably also why the benzo is needed for the panic caused by all of that. And it also seems unpredictable how difficult it will be to go unconscious enough early enough to hopefully not realize what is happening or feel it as much/be as aware of it.

I wish I had known that Nembutal used to be so available in my lifetime. I can't believe I've had ideation for so long and by the time it becomes active, all the more peaceful & quick methods have been banned or redesigned to not work easily at all for that purpose anymore. And I can't believe I still had some hope and held out for so long believing that I could improve only for my life & conditions to reach a level of torture that I didn't even know existed until it happened to me :( It's like I am being punished for not having done it earlier. I think I had some stupid idea that I would eventually be rewarded one day if I kept pressing on. My life has literally gotten worse in all the aspects I could have imagined. I couldn't even have predicted it would get this bad if I tried. And I am being forced to have many of my phobias happen to me because of my circumstances & conditions not giving me a choice or break from them anymore. And to miss out on even more of the life experiences that I was prevented from being able to experience for most of my life by controlling family members. I just can't believe this is my life and what it became. If I would have known what my future was, I would have attempted CBT instead of pushing through because it's like a nightmare that I couldn't have even come up with in my own even with multiple basically lifelong severe anxiety disorders.

My condition is also rare and commonly invalidated because of how unknown it is and I have already been invalidated by almost everyone around me for my entire life.

P.S. I'm pretty sure the 90% statistic is that 90% of the population who attempts using firearms completes CTB And doesn't survive. Not that an attempt with a firearm has a 90% chance of completing. I am half-awake & not sure if this makes sense anymore

I wish I had done the CO method when I was still physically capable & able to be more independent instead of convincing myself it was too complicated to figure out. And I wish that I was better at understanding what instructions mean and figuring out concepts. I also didn't remember that I will probably get severely burned by gun flash also. Fear & potential brain damage will literally make all my current symptoms that caused ideation to become active even worse than they already are. And people with TBI are more likely to have PTSD, anxiety, & depression even if they never did before. And to become suicidal even if they weren't before :(

And my family will keep me alive no matter how braindead I become if I don't complete correctly regardless of what I say or write.

And I already had ideation hundreds of times a day which has progressed to what seems like thousands of times per day. (Basically, I did not think that the frequency of chronic ideation could increase any more than the level/frequency/intensity that it was already at and had reached. But apparently, I have found out that it can.

And nothing has literal 0% survival probability :(
And the 70-90% gun CTB statistic doesn't specify if the majority of those were because of larger calibers like rifle & shotgun which I cannot access. And I already survived something with a 70% completion probability.

i didn't say certain i said 99.5% with rifle or shotgun if practice ,the main source of error is human flinching human error. imo any of the gun failures are under the chin and flinching so grazing only the face. even so 90% with guns and that includes many who never touched a gun, and with 22 caliber hand guns etc. 1.5 million per year attempt suicide in the U.S. only close to 50,000 suicides per year. that's less than 4% of suicide attempt that result in Death. but with guns it's 90%.

police here carry 9mm handguns . these are deadly from a distance if hit on the middle of the head. 362 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. the bullet loses energy as it travels . in a contact shot hot gasses explode into the brain which they cannot from a distance. these gasses can reach over 2000 degrees farenheit and add more energy exploded into the brain. so you are saying a rifle as in the example which is close to 3000 ftlbs pounds of energy at least 8 times more energy than 9mm handgun exploded into the brain is survivable. that is not the case.

the brain is a solid inelastic. the pressure wave from a 3000 fps bullet would be at least 10 inches as can be seen from ballistic gell and gel heads. the brain can't stretch 10 inches but would be liquified . it's just physics.

ai just confirmed what i had researched.

i don't see how anyone can think a human could survive a bullet travelling 3000 feet per second 150 grains hit in the middle of the head where the brain is. it's not possible it's physics.

 

[looking4partner]

i didn't say certain i said 99.5% with rifle or shotgun if practice ,the main source of error is human flinching human error. imo any of the gun failures are under the chin and flinching so grazing only the face. even so 90% with guns and that includes many who never touched a gun, and with 22 caliber hand guns etc. 1.5 million per year attempt suicide in the U.S. only close to 50,000 suicides per year. that's less than 4% of suicide attempt that result in Death. but with guns it's 90%.

police here carry 9mm handguns . these are deadly from a distance if hit on the middle of the head. 362 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. the bullet loses energy as it travels . in a contact shot hot gasses explode into the brain which they cannot from a distance. these gasses can reach over 2000 degrees farenheit and add more energy exploded into the brain. so you are saying a rifle as in the example which is close to 3000 ftlbs pounds of energy at least 8 times more energy than 9mm handgun exploded into the brain is survivable. that is not the case.

the brain is a solid inelastic. the pressure wave from a 3000 fps bullet would be at least 10 inches as can be seen from ballistic gell and gel heads. the brain can't stretch 10 inches but would be liquified . it's just physics.

ai just confirmed what i had researched.

i don't see how anyone can think a human could survive a bullet travelling 3000 feet per second 150 grains hit in the middle of the head where the brain is. it's not possible it's physics.

I didn't say exploding into the brain, I said grazing the skin or scalp or possibly brain. But yes, there is always a chance of surviving even if highly unlikely. There was a police officer named Stacy Lin who survived being shot through the heart.

And while it is a much higher likelihood of dying with a larger gun, there is still a chance & accounts of people surviving that. Which I think people should be aware of.

 

[Collie:3]

Pipe bomb vest, lit 1 minute fuse, shoot head handgun, blow up

 

[scots]

Just get a quick and shitty tutorial from an 'Inspire' magazine or something on archive.org

 

[blacksand]

A .308 will kill a large pig or deer before it hits the ground if shooting center of mass. A shotgun will also do this.

 

[emptylost]

If it is close contact you also account for the gases creating a bigger cavity.
Here is a great video for close contact gunshot to the head with 00 buck shot